| Author |
Message |
Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: The emoticon "g" [was: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:38:10 GMT, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On 10 Oct 2005 16:40:10 -0700, "Gerald Smyth"
geraldsmyth1@yahoo.com> said:
[...]
That last comma there is positively alien to me....g
Why does Gerald Smyth always end his postings with an
emoticon ("g") especially when nothing funny seems to have
been said?
|
I dunno, but it may have something to do with the initial letter of
his name.
| Quote: | Yeah, I know, it's not an emoticon, but it frequently
strikes me that way.
|
--
Charles Riggs |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site [was: Re: About that |
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Laura F. Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Ted Schuerzinger <fedya@bestweb.spam> wrote:
Somebody claiming to be Joe Fineman <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in
news:uu0fog91n.fsf@verizon.net:
I imagine "I want to thank" as a colloquial & not very sensible
shortening of "I would like to thank",
And "I would like to thank" *is* sensible? I can't imagine a speaker
saying, "I really wouldn't like to thank you, but that would be
impolite...."
By shifting gears, I can imagine the kind of construction that you and
Laura must have in mind:
I would *like* to think that he's competent, but clearly...
I would *like* to say something nice, but I can't think of anything.
That sort of snide "would like ... but" is a special use. The ordinary
use is more like:
I would like two tickets for tonight's performance.
No deep meaning there. Just a construction generally considered polite.
I think there's a bit more to it than that.
|
That is no doubt true.
| Quote: | Your example is effectively
a polite request for someone else to act - in this instance, to engage
in a transaction with you - and you could recast it as "Please may I
have two tickets.."
|
I could have made up more passive examples.
I would like to announce the winners of the contest.
I would like to say we're all grateful for his work.
| Quote: |
"I want to thank.." can't be recast in the same way since it doesn't
lead to an action on the part of anyone other than the speaker. I think
the inference of some constraint on the action of thanking is thus quite
logical.
|
But "logical" is the problem, isn't it? Polite formulas are not
necessarily logical, they're arbitrary. They need to be taken to mean
what they are intended to mean, and not as what the individual parts
could be assigned to mean, by someone so inclined.
When someone says in Dutch "Zegt u maar" I have to know they are very
politely intending something like "Tell me how I may help you." The
literal meaning is "Say you but" and if I was being uncharitable, I
would have to correlate it to the impolite "Speak up! Spit it out!" The
fact that this thought occurs to me does not really say anything about
*them*.
Consider the discussions there have been around here about "You're
welcome," "So long," and the like. Some people are so perplexed because
they don't know the logical roots of these phrases, they suspect bad
intentions.
Have you ever *heard* anyone say "I want/would like to thank XX but I
can't?" Or is the "but" follow-up just a thought you have?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site [was: Re: About that |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Laura F. Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Ted Schuerzinger <fedya@bestweb.spam> wrote:
Somebody claiming to be Joe Fineman <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in
news:uu0fog91n.fsf@verizon.net:
I imagine "I want to thank" as a colloquial & not very sensible
shortening of "I would like to thank",
And "I would like to thank" *is* sensible? I can't imagine a speaker
saying, "I really wouldn't like to thank you, but that would be
impolite...."
By shifting gears, I can imagine the kind of construction that you and
Laura must have in mind:
I would *like* to think that he's competent, but clearly...
I would *like* to say something nice, but I can't think of anything.
That sort of snide "would like ... but" is a special use. The ordinary
use is more like:
I would like two tickets for tonight's performance.
No deep meaning there. Just a construction generally considered polite.
I think there's a bit more to it than that.
That is no doubt true.
Your example is effectively
a polite request for someone else to act - in this instance, to engage
in a transaction with you - and you could recast it as "Please may I
have two tickets.."
I could have made up more passive examples.
I would like to announce the winners of the contest.
|
"..so will you all please be quiet." A not uncommon preamble.
| Quote: | I would like to say we're all grateful for his work.
|
That sounds quite unnatural to me and I definitely hear a "but" there!
| Quote: |
"I want to thank.." can't be recast in the same way since it doesn't
lead to an action on the part of anyone other than the speaker. I think
the inference of some constraint on the action of thanking is thus quite
logical.
But "logical" is the problem, isn't it? Polite formulas are not
necessarily logical, they're arbitrary. They need to be taken to mean
what they are intended to mean, and not as what the individual parts
could be assigned to mean, by someone so inclined.
|
I don't disagree but I'm not clear about where the politeness in "I want
to thank you.." (which is where we started) resides. It just doesn't
sound as polite to me as "Thank you.." does. Perhaps I am suffering from
a bout of literalism today.
| Quote: |
When someone says in Dutch "Zegt u maar" I have to know they are very
politely intending something like "Tell me how I may help you." The
literal meaning is "Say you but" and if I was being uncharitable, I
would have to correlate it to the impolite "Speak up! Spit it out!" The
fact that this thought occurs to me does not really say anything about
*them*.
Consider the discussions there have been around here about "You're
welcome," "So long," and the like. Some people are so perplexed because
they don't know the logical roots of these phrases, they suspect bad
intentions.
Have you ever *heard* anyone say "I want/would like to thank XX but I
can't?" Or is the "but" follow-up just a thought you have?
|
Only in jest, but I think my thought is logical, nevertheless.
Another thought: I'm sure I must have said "I'd like to thank XX.." as a
public statement. Perhaps it's in the context of a private statement
that it seems more peculiar.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site [was: Re: About that |
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Laura F. Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
I would like to announce the winners of the contest.
"..so will you all please be quiet." A not uncommon preamble.
|
This negative twist may be something pondian. It's not a difference I've
picked up on from watching BBC News, though.
Just to show you that it is a routine, empty formality in the US, I went
to the US military press briefings and found many thousands of hits such
as:
I want to take this opportunity to express my appreciation for this
meeting.
I want to emphasize both the activity we're describing this
afternoon and No Child Left Behind, are the product of statutes
voted by the Congress.
I want to assure these young people over there that are making the
sacrifice for this country that the people back home...
I want to thank Major Dave Skalicky, our Task Force Engineer for.
heading up the ...
I want to emphasize that the search and rescue effort will continue
as if it were our own countrymen who were on the fishing Vessel...
There's no negative twist, no "but I can't, or won't" angle. You could
criticize them for being empty fillers, meaningless padding, but that's
different. And I don't see those words as being totally useless -- they
provide tone and timing.
Perhaps it's used more in speech than in writing, and perhaps more in
public address than in conversation.
I have a hard time thinking how I'd say to a group, "I want to take this
opportunity to express my appreciation" *without* starting with "I want"
or "I would like..." Perhaps "May I take this opportunity to..." You
can't just bluntly say "I express my appreciation for..." Possibly "I
appreciate..." but it sounds weird, with no introduction.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:16 pm
Post subject: Quotes with doubled words (was: _Chicago Manual of Style_ We |
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Donna Richoux writes:
| Quote: | That's what makes foreign, foreign.
I'm trying to think of famous quotations that double up words like that.
The closest I can come is:
Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No';
anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
|
Gertrude Stein's famous putdown of Oakland comes to mind. Internet
sources are split as to whether it was "There is no there there" or
"There's no there there", and my print references don't have it.
--
Mark Brader "Just because the standard provides a cliff in
Toronto front of you, you are not necessarily required
msb@vex.net to jump off it." -- Norman Diamond |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site [was: Re: About that |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:03:49 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
| Quote: | Ted Schuerzinger <fedya@bestweb.spam> wrote:
Somebody claiming to be Joe Fineman <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in
news:uu0fog91n.fsf@verizon.net:
I imagine "I want to thank" as a colloquial & not very sensible
shortening of "I would like to thank",
And "I would like to thank" *is* sensible? I can't imagine a speaker
saying, "I really wouldn't like to thank you, but that would be
impolite...."
By shifting gears, I can imagine the kind of construction that you and
Laura must have in mind:
I would *like* to think that he's competent, but clearly...
I would *like* to say something nice, but I can't think of anything.
That sort of snide "would like ... but" is a special use. The ordinary
use is more like:
I would like two tickets for tonight's performance.
No deep meaning there. Just a construction generally considered polite.
|
There is another similar polite construction: "X is to be
congratulated".
Whenever I hear that I think: "well go on and congratulate X" -- but the
speaker never does.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e) |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Clickable links [was: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web |
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Don Aitken wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 17:53:36 -0700, "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net
wrote:
Does it do e-mail? I don't want to use separate programs for e-mail and
newsgroups.
|
If you want both, Thunderbird is a perfectly functional, secure program.
It even reads rss feeds, if you want it to.
Its newsreader functionality isn't as slick as Agent's, but this is to
be expected in any combined software. I use it (not for rss, though)
because I want to keep down the number of applications I have constantly
open .
| Quote: | Free Agent will send email, but not receive it. The full Agent will do
both.
|
And conversely, Agent isn't as sophisticated as specialized e-mail clients.
Chris Waigl
--
blog: http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
eggcorns: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/ |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site |
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"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes:
| Quote: | Yes, there are newsreaders that do not process clickable links
properly. Users of those should remove the colon, or whatever
closely follows the URL. My newsreader (OE) recognizes the true URL,
even with a colon or a parenthesis after it. I thought that all of
the more recent newsreaders did that, especially ones that cost
money.
|
Such newsreaders would have had an interesting time with a URL I
posted within the last couple of days, which ended in two colons.
Since I followed the standard and enclosed it in "<URL:" and ">", I
presume that any non-broken reader got it, but I gave the tinyurl just
to be sure.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play...
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Quotes with doubled words |
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Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux writes:
That's what makes foreign, foreign.
I'm trying to think of famous quotations that double up words like that.
The closest I can come is:
Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No';
anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Gertrude Stein's famous putdown of Oakland comes to mind. Internet
sources are split as to whether it was "There is no there there" or
"There's no there there", and my print references don't have it.
|
Bartleby has:
The Columbia World of Quotations. 1996.
There is no there there.
ATTRIBUTION: Gertrude Stein (1874-1946), U.S.
author. Everybody's Autobiography, ch. 4 (1937).
Well, whatever it is, it's hopeless to consult Gertrude Stein on matters
of punctuation. You might as well ask archy and mehitabel
--
toujours gai -- Donna Richoux |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:15 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site |
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R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> writes:
| Quote: | An argument could doubtless be made that someone should be able to
link to a page with a dot at the end of its address without making
people jump through hoops to get there...another argument could be
made that someone should be able to include URLs in text without
having the surrounding punctuation getting all caught up in them....
|
You mean that people should be able to talk about
<URL:http//www.kirshenbaum.net/test/test.htm> and
<URL:http//www.kirshenbaum.net/test/test.htm.> or even
<URL:http//www.kirshenbaum.net/test/test.htm with spaces> without
those getting confused?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken.
| Larry Wall
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site |
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"Laura F. Spira" <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
I want to thank you for telling us about that site.
This always strikes me as a very odd construction which seems
predominantly Leftpondian. What does "I want to thank you" add that is
not conveyed by a simple "Thank you" or even "Thank you very much"?
Somehow, I seem to hear a "but" which would be followed by a reason
for *not* giving thanks.
|
It's the same sort of distancing that we use when making requests. It
lowers the status of the speaker by implying that they don't have the
right to come out and make the utterance without asking permission of
the person being addressed. Much English-language politeness is based
on this distancing.
It shows up most clearly in requests. "Open the window" becomes "[If
it] please [you,] open the window". Or "Could you open the window?"
or "Could I trouble you to open the window?" all the way to "Would it
be possible to inquire if you might consider opening the window?" The
further you distance yourself from the bare order, the more power you
are (notionally) ceding to the person being asked: Not only can he
refuse to open the window, but he can refuse to allow you to make the
request or even to grant you the right to do so. And the further you
distance yourself from the bare order, the more polite it will be
perceived, at least until it shades into being seen as obsequious. Of
course, it's not perceived as "ceding power"; it's merely seen as
"being polite", and this is the mechanism used in English.
With thanking, the same distancing is going on. The thanker is
(literally) asserting personal unworthiness to express gratitude. But
just perceives himself as "being polite". Interestingly, though, in
situations of immediate intense gratitude for actions just performed,
such distancing is uncommon.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"It makes you wonder if there is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |anything to astrology after all."
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |
|"Oh, there is," said Susan.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |"Delusion, wishful thinking and
(650)857-7572 |gullibility."
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning [was: Re: _Chicago Manual |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:18:27 +0200, Ross Howard
<gguiri@yahoo.com> said:
[...]
| Quote: | There's nothing wrong with using a comma now and then with
its intrinsic meaning, to signal a pause.
Surely a comma's "intrinsic meaning" is to act not as a speech-rhythm
marker but as a syntax-demarcation device. In other words, to use the
analogy of sheet music, it's not so much a rest as a barline between
measures.
|
The _Chicago Manual of Style 14th Edition_ (_CMS14_)
introduces its discussion of the comma, in section 5.29,
with the following remark:
The comma, perhaps the most versatile of the
punctuation marks, indicates the smallest
interruption in continuity of thought or sentence
structure.
A pause is an interruption of continuity. I've seen
somewhere a discussion of "stops" that ranked them according
to the degree of pausing: something like comma, semicolon,
colon, period. If I come across that again someday, I'll
quote it here.
I doubt that anyone would say the pause is the principal use
of "stops", but it's certainly one of them. I like to think
of the pause as the intrinsic significance of stops out of
which other uses have evolved. We need more punctuation
marks in English, especially to distinguish the various uses
to which the comma is put.
| Quote: | Considering that Bob's such a careful and thoughtful (if occasionally,
as here, a tad idiosyncratic) punctuator himself,
|
I like to think that I follow British punctuation
conventions. They can hardly be properly called
idiosyncratic while they are used by millions of
Englishpersons.
I use the alternation of double and single quotation marks
in the American style, but we have been told that some
British publishers do that, too.
I omit the periods in the initials of proper names -- as in
"P G Wodehouse" -- but we have been told by at least one
British posters that there is a tendency for that to become
the practice over there.
What features of my punctuation practices do you judge to be
idiosyncratic?
| Quote: | I was rather taken
aback when I read that remark coming from him. In my experience, much
as AOL is the natural home of the Net nutter, all too often the Pause
School of Commafication is the alma mater of the iffy punctuator.
|
According to _CMS14_, we should all be iffy punctuators as
far as commas are concerned. They go on to say in section
5.29
There are a few rules governing [the comma's] use that
have become almost obligatory. Aside from these, the
use of the comma is mainly a matter of good judgment,
with ease of reading the end in view. |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web site [was: Re: About that |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Ted Schuerzinger wrote:
Joe Fineman wrote in:
I imagine "I want to thank" as a colloquial & not very sensible
shortening of "I would like to thank",
And "I would like to thank" *is* sensible? I can't imagine a speaker
saying, "I really wouldn't like to thank you, but that would be
impolite...."
By shifting gears, I can imagine the kind of construction that you and
Laura must have in mind:
I would *like* to think that he's competent, but clearly...
I would *like* to say something nice, but I can't think of anything.
That sort of snide "would like ... but" is a special use. The ordinary
use is more like:
I would like two tickets for tonight's performance.
|
Would you, now? So'd I, but they are all sold out.
| Quote: | No deep meaning there. Just a construction generally considered
polite.
|
When at the ticket window, I usualy say, "Two tickets for tonight's
performance, please." Polite enough, I think.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:12 am
Post subject: Re: Clickable links [was: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web |
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|
Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: | "Skitt" wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
"Skitt" said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
I don't know what Outlook Express costs, but I wouldn't
pay two cents for it. If someone wanted to pay me to
use it, I would consider only a very generous offer.
It came free with the computer, and I like it. I tried
Free Agent and hated it. To each his own.
Free Agent was only a pale shadow of Agent. Anyone who has
tried Free Agent and thinks he or she knows what Agent is
probably like is dreadfully wrong.
Anyway, I don't think Forte is offering Free Agent anymore,
but they still offer a free trial of Agent, if I remember
right.
Does it do e-mail? I don't want to use separate programs for e-mail
and newsgroups.
I must strenuously object to this practice. I say, use a program
designed for newsgroups for newsgroups and one specifically designed
for email for email. One doesn't eat peas using a spoon for the same
reason. I use Eudora, a quirky but excellent program once you
understand the quirks, on one computer and Outlook on another.
|
I don't understand your reluctance to use the same program for both. I
don't do much e-mail, so I din't want a separate program for it. I tried
Eudora (and Pegasus) many years ago, bet decided to stay with OE.
| Quote: | I'd use Outlook -- a near-perfect product -- on both, but Microsoft
won't let me because I'd installed Outlook on a second computer, now
disused, already. I could talk with the good folks at Microsoft,
Dublin, to straighten this out, but haven't gotten a round toit.
|
I too would use Outlook, as I have it on my computer, but it doesn't do
newsgroups without switching to OE.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: Clickable links [was: Re: _Chicago Manual of Style_ Web |
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|
Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: | "Skitt" said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
Why make that user copy and paste
in order to spare yourself the inconvenience of typing a
couple of spaces?
Well, when I posted that URL I didn't know that Agent still had that
problem.
It's not a question of whether or not Agent has the problem.
There are many other newsreaders in use. (See
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/newsreaders_xxxx.html
, where "xxxx" stands for any year 1996 through 2004.) It's
a matter of not being able to depend upon any one of the
many newsreaders providing the capability to click on a link
that isn't suitably delimited.
Honest Injun! I might try to make allowances for it, but that
screws up English language writing conventions. I'll try to decide
what sort of presentation is best in this group. There might be
other ways to skin this cat.
There have been extensive threads on this subject in
alt.usage.english over the years. They're probably
available at Google Groups if you can think of a suitable
search string.
|
Probably, but they are not up to date with the latest software capabilities
(and quirks).
| Quote: | I advocated enclosing URLs in angle brackets, and I thought
that was a tidy, foolproof approach, but there was at least
one poster who didn't like it.
|
I tried that, but the angle brackets get removed as soon as whatever comes
next to the closing one gets typed. That's because OE has no problems with
URLs being followed by commas and such.
| Quote: | He asked that URLs always be
on a line by themselves, and I abided by that request for a
long time, drifting away from it only when that poster had
been gone from the newsgroup for a long time.
|
That is fine, but sometimes there's a comma or colon required (English
usage-wise) after the URL, and there's nowhere to put that without appearing
to be French.
| Quote: |
Donna participated in the discussions, and you can see by
looking at her postings what her conclusion seems to have
been. It evidently was to always put a URL on a line by
itself. She nearly always does that.
|
As do I.
| Quote: | There's a trap there, though, that she may not have thought
of: When a posting is quoted, all of its lines get an
attribution tag in column one, including lines that may have
had URLs by themselves. This results in a URL that has ">"
precatenated to it. If the URL that was on a line by itself
wasn't preceded by a space, this means that the URL has the
">" directly precatenated. I tried that with Agent, and
Agent didn't object, but other newsreaders might.
I will continue to precede and follow all URLs with a space,
not bothering to put URLs on separate lines, waiting for
anyone to tell me that it causes a problem with clickability
in their newsreader.
I doubt that any other approach will be found necessary to
"skin this cat". If you're worried about the esthetics of
that approach, maybe bracketing URLs with "<>" is the best
way to skin it. We could experiment again to see if anyone
has a clickability problem with those delimiters.
|
No can do, as I wrote above.
But don't worry -- I'll figure out something to make things easier for all,
possibly at the cost of poor punctuation.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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