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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:06:22 +0200, Ross Howard
<gguiri@yahoo.com> said:
| Quote: | And not ending a sentence with a single word after
a comma unless that single word is parenthetical is one
of those rigid rules, surely. (For example.)
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But the decision to put a comma before the last word if that
word is parenthetical, or not if it's not, may be according
to a rule, but it's also good elocutionary punctuation. |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:57 am
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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On 13 Oct 2005 15:43:42 GMT, ke10@cus.cam.ac.uk (K.
Edgcombe) said:
| Quote: | In article <3r4j2jFhl58nU1@individual.net>,
Matti Lamprhey <matti@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
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[...]
| Quote: | I'm definitely on the side of Bob and Donna here, with some surprise
that other respected Brits demur. Perhaps I'm overimbued with the
Elocutionary Principle.
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[...]
| Quote: | However, Matti, when you say "other respected Brits", given that Bob
and Donna are highly respected but not Brits, you seem to be asserting that you
are a respected Brit. You are, of course, but if you wished to appear modest
as well, a pair of commas would have done that job for you.
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It took me a few moments to see where those commas would go,
but I think I may have finally got it. I think you meant to
punctuate like so:
with some suprise that, other, respected Brits demur
That works, I suppose, but it seems a little awkward and
possibly unclear. Wouldn't it have been better for Matti to
preserve his modesty by saying
with some surprise that respected other Brits demur
?
But maybe you had a different place for the comma pair that
I haven't puzzled out yet. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:25 am
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, it's a matter of taste but, yes, many rigid rules exist and are
routinely applied. And not ending a sentence with a single word after
a comma unless that single word is parenthetical is one of those rigid
rules, surely. (For example.)
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What do you think of:
The teams that should win, win.
I've been looking around for a real example of the construction I used,
and this is the first one I've found. It's not great literature, it's a
football blog:
Ah, Week 5. The week when everything settles out,
and the teams that should win, win.
Would you really prefer
The teams that should win win.
?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:44 am
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: |
Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, it's a matter of taste but, yes, many rigid rules exist and are
routinely applied. And not ending a sentence with a single word after
a comma unless that single word is parenthetical is one of those rigid
rules, surely. (For example.)
What do you think of:
The teams that should win, win.
I've been looking around for a real example of the construction I used,
and this is the first one I've found. It's not great literature, it's a
football blog:
Ah, Week 5. The week when everything settles out,
and the teams that should win, win.
Would you really prefer
The teams that should win win.
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Surely we can find a win-win solution to this one.
But until we do, I'm siding with Donna.
--
Bob Lieblich
And she, willy-nilly, is siding with me |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:29 am
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:25:08 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrought:
| Quote: | Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, it's a matter of taste but, yes, many rigid rules exist and are
routinely applied. And not ending a sentence with a single word after
a comma unless that single word is parenthetical is one of those rigid
rules, surely. (For example.)
What do you think of:
The teams that should win, win.
I've been looking around for a real example of the construction I used,
and this is the first one I've found. It's not great literature, it's a
football blog:
Ah, Week 5. The week when everything settles out,
and the teams that should win, win.
Would you really prefer
The teams that should win win.
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No, if editing, I'd change it:
The teams that should win do win.
--
Ross Howard |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:12 pm
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:25:08 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrought:
I've been looking around for a real example of the construction I used,
and this is the first one I've found. It's not great literature, it's a
football blog:
Ah, Week 5. The week when everything settles out,
and the teams that should win, win.
Would you really prefer
The teams that should win win.
No, if editing, I'd change it:
The teams that should win do win.
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To me, that's crossing a dangerous line -- telling native speakers of a
language they can't say things a certain way because *you* can't make
those words fit your punctuation rules. I see it as a shortcoming in the
rule system, not the natural speech.
The above grammatical pattern is not so far from the famous:
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
And those who can't teach, teach teachers.
Why is anyone's life improved by dropping those commas?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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J. W. Love
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:46 pm
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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Donna wrote:
| Quote: | The above grammatical pattern is not so far from the famous:
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
And those who can't teach, teach teachers.
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And the possibly more famous:
Whatever is, is in its causes just.---Dryden, _Oedipus_ (1679)
Whatever is, is right.---Pope, _An Essay on Man_ (1733-1734) |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: The comma's intrinsic meaning |
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On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:12:20 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrought:
| Quote: | Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:25:08 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrought:
I've been looking around for a real example of the construction I used,
and this is the first one I've found. It's not great literature, it's a
football blog:
Ah, Week 5. The week when everything settles out,
and the teams that should win, win.
Would you really prefer
The teams that should win win.
No, if editing, I'd change it:
The teams that should win do win.
To me, that's crossing a dangerous line -- telling native speakers of a
language they can't say things a certain way because *you* can't make
those words fit your punctuation rules. I see it as a shortcoming in the
rule system, not the natural speech.
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Yes, I wouldn't change it in a quote, obviously. I'd live with the
comma, much as I dislike it.
| Quote: |
The above grammatical pattern is not so far from the famous:
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
And those who can't teach, teach teachers.
Why is anyone's life improved by dropping those commas?
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It isn't. My aversion to non-parenthetical commas that split verbs
from their subjects or complements is just so great that *whenever
possible* I get rid of them. In the examples you give it's not
possible, I'll happily grant you that, but in the sentence that
started all this it was.
--
Ross Howard |
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