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Message |
fred
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:02 pm
Post subject: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, how? |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: |
Nonsense; Up until umpteen decades ago, and in fact very possibly even
today, thee was still street coloquey in some British communities. I've
never met anyone who uses it regularly, if at all, but Thomas Hardy
characters(late 19th century) use it, although changing times are a
running theme in his novels -- His poetic license is quite limited
though. The Yorkshire accent in the computer game Worms 2 features a
naturalistic taunt: "I'll get thee and no messin'", archaism not being
a theme. However it is true that poets such as Burns would use them
only in poetry despite them having fallen out of use a hundred years
earlier. "Thee" is barely alive and drawing its last breath in British
idioms such as the reinforcing "...,I tell thee".
There is a character in Last of The Summer Wine who uses it regularly
and naturally. I made a mental note of one phrase: "What's th' doin'
that th' mus'n't be disturb'd?". I guess the actor doesn't talk that
way and it's just an added touch about him believing himself to be
descnded from Robin Hood, but the way it is said("th'") hints at
knowledge by the writer of a recent last few dregs of standard "thou".
~Iain
|
Yes of course! It's pure Yorkshire isn't it! Perhaps dying out, maybe
already dead....but you just can't be sure until you actually listen to
what people say. I wouldn't be surprised if it is still current in some
places.
Just to carry the argument through to it's conclusion, I would be very
interested to know whether and how a natural user of 'thee' or 'th'
would switch between 'thee' and 'you' (or some other plural 'you'
form): would they do this to denote singular or multiple 'yous' to whom
they are speaking?
Or would, perhaps, 'ye' be the right form for talking to a group?
Also, is there a 'formal' versus 'informal/intimate' norm which applies
in this kind of English?
Is there anyone from Yorkshire out there who can answer this? : )
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
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fred wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
Nonsense; Up until umpteen decades ago, and in fact very possibly even
today, thee was still street coloquey in some British communities. I've
never met anyone who uses it regularly, if at all, but Thomas Hardy
characters(late 19th century) use it, although changing times are a
running theme in his novels -- His poetic license is quite limited
though. The Yorkshire accent in the computer game Worms 2 features a
naturalistic taunt: "I'll get thee and no messin'", archaism not being
a theme. However it is true that poets such as Burns would use them
only in poetry despite them having fallen out of use a hundred years
earlier. "Thee" is barely alive and drawing its last breath in British
idioms such as the reinforcing "...,I tell thee".
There is a character in Last of The Summer Wine who uses it regularly
and naturally. I made a mental note of one phrase: "What's th' doin'
that th' mus'n't be disturb'd?". I guess the actor doesn't talk that
way and it's just an added touch about him believing himself to be
descnded from Robin Hood, but the way it is said("th'") hints at
knowledge by the writer of a recent last few dregs of standard "thou".
~Iain
Yes of course! It's pure Yorkshire isn't it! Perhaps dying out, maybe
already dead....but you just can't be sure until you actually listen to
what people say. I wouldn't be surprised if it is still current in some
places.
Just to carry the argument through to it's conclusion, I would be very
interested to know whether and how a natural user of 'thee' or 'th'
would switch between 'thee' and 'you' (or some other plural 'you'
form): would they do this to denote singular or multiple 'yous' to whom
they are speaking?
|
We've had a hard enough time establishing that it even exists, so I'm
not sure about the details.
I just saw a T-Shirt featuring Craig David's parody catchphrase: "Bo
selecta, I tell thee." It's second-hand and whimsical, but he grew up
in Thomas Hardy country, where last time I checked, people said "'ee"
for "thee". I would guess offhand from his complexion, age and
lifestyle that it is not ancestrally aquired, i.e. maybe it's alive
among the younger generation.
| Quote: | Or would, perhaps, 'ye' be the right form for talking to a group?
|
It's hard to tell whether what sounds like "ye" is not merely a modern
corruption of "you", like "ya" is.
| Quote: | Also, is there a 'formal' versus 'informal/intimate' norm which applies
in this kind of English?
Is there anyone from Yorkshire out there who can answer this? : )
|
Modern Yorkshiremen who say "thee", I guess would not say it at an
interview for a university admission, so in that sense it's informal.
Then again, in a flourish of reasonable prejudice I'd say they are
either so old, non-existent or working class that it probably wouldn't
come to that.
It is used by numerous modern elderly Yorkshirefolk in television drama
and comedy.
~Iain |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: | fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Nonsense; Up until umpteen decades ago, and in fact very possibly even
today, thee was still street coloquey in some British communities. I've
never met anyone who uses it regularly, if at all, but Thomas Hardy
characters(late 19th century) use it, although changing times are a
running theme in his novels -- His poetic license is quite limited
though. The Yorkshire accent in the computer game Worms 2 features a
naturalistic taunt: "I'll get thee and no messin'", archaism not being
a theme. However it is true that poets such as Burns would use them
only in poetry despite them having fallen out of use a hundred years
earlier. "Thee" is barely alive and drawing its last breath in British
idioms such as the reinforcing "...,I tell thee".
There is a character in Last of The Summer Wine who uses it regularly
and naturally. I made a mental note of one phrase: "What's th' doin'
that th' mus'n't be disturb'd?". I guess the actor doesn't talk that
way and it's just an added touch about him believing himself to be
descnded from Robin Hood, but the way it is said("th'") hints at
knowledge by the writer of a recent last few dregs of standard "thou".
~Iain
Yes of course! It's pure Yorkshire isn't it! Perhaps dying out, maybe
already dead....but you just can't be sure until you actually listen to
what people say. I wouldn't be surprised if it is still current in some
places.
Just to carry the argument through to it's conclusion, I would be very
interested to know whether and how a natural user of 'thee' or 'th'
would switch between 'thee' and 'you' (or some other plural 'you'
form): would they do this to denote singular or multiple 'yous' to whom
they are speaking?
We've had a hard enough time establishing that it even exists, so I'm
not sure about the details.
I just saw a T-Shirt featuring Craig David's parody catchphrase: "Bo
selecta, I tell thee." It's second-hand and whimsical, but he grew up
in Thomas Hardy country, where last time I checked, people said "'ee"
for "thee". I would guess offhand from his complexion, age and
lifestyle that it is not ancestrally aquired, i.e. maybe it's alive
among the younger generation.
Or would, perhaps, 'ye' be the right form for talking to a group?
It's hard to tell whether what sounds like "ye" is not merely a modern
corruption of "you", like "ya" is.
Also, is there a 'formal' versus 'informal/intimate' norm which applies
in this kind of English?
Is there anyone from Yorkshire out there who can answer this? : )
Modern Yorkshiremen who say "thee", I guess would not say it at an
interview for a university admission, so in that sense it's informal.
Then again, in a flourish of reasonable prejudice I'd say they are
either so old, non-existent or working class that it probably wouldn't
come to that.
It is used by numerous modern elderly Yorkshirefolk in television drama
and comedy.
|
In addition to the above, I notice they also say "Dust th'?", "th'"
surely meaning "thou"?
~Iain
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Nonsense; Up until umpteen decades ago, and in fact very possibly even
today, thee was still street coloquey in some British communities. I've
never met anyone who uses it regularly, if at all, but Thomas Hardy
characters(late 19th century) use it, although changing times are a
running theme in his novels -- His poetic license is quite limited
though. The Yorkshire accent in the computer game Worms 2 features a
naturalistic taunt: "I'll get thee and no messin'", archaism not being
a theme. However it is true that poets such as Burns would use them
only in poetry despite them having fallen out of use a hundred years
earlier. "Thee" is barely alive and drawing its last breath in British
idioms such as the reinforcing "...,I tell thee".
There is a character in Last of The Summer Wine who uses it regularly
and naturally. I made a mental note of one phrase: "What's th' doin'
that th' mus'n't be disturb'd?". I guess the actor doesn't talk that
way and it's just an added touch about him believing himself to be
descnded from Robin Hood, but the way it is said("th'") hints at
knowledge by the writer of a recent last few dregs of standard "thou".
~Iain
Yes of course! It's pure Yorkshire isn't it! Perhaps dying out, maybe
already dead....but you just can't be sure until you actually listen to
what people say. I wouldn't be surprised if it is still current in some
places.
Just to carry the argument through to it's conclusion, I would be very
interested to know whether and how a natural user of 'thee' or 'th'
would switch between 'thee' and 'you' (or some other plural 'you'
form): would they do this to denote singular or multiple 'yous' to whom
they are speaking?
We've had a hard enough time establishing that it even exists, so I'm
not sure about the details.
I just saw a T-Shirt featuring Craig David's parody catchphrase: "Bo
selecta, I tell thee." It's second-hand and whimsical, but he grew up
in Thomas Hardy country, where last time I checked, people said "'ee"
for "thee". I would guess offhand from his complexion, age and
lifestyle that it is not ancestrally aquired, i.e. maybe it's alive
among the younger generation.
Or would, perhaps, 'ye' be the right form for talking to a group?
It's hard to tell whether what sounds like "ye" is not merely a modern
corruption of "you", like "ya" is.
Also, is there a 'formal' versus 'informal/intimate' norm which applies
in this kind of English?
Is there anyone from Yorkshire out there who can answer this? : )
Modern Yorkshiremen who say "thee", I guess would not say it at an
interview for a university admission, so in that sense it's informal.
Then again, in a flourish of reasonable prejudice I'd say they are
either so old, non-existent or working class that it probably wouldn't
come to that.
It is used by numerous modern elderly Yorkshirefolk in television drama
and comedy.
In addition to the above, I notice they also say "Dust th'?", "th'"
surely meaning "thou"?
|
Addition addition: "Thissen" means "thyself".
~Iain |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:48 am
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
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Iain wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Modern Yorkshiremen who say "thee", I guess would not say it at an
interview for a university admission, so in that sense it's
informal.
Then again, in a flourish of reasonable prejudice I'd say they are
either so old, non-existent or working class that it probably
wouldn't
come to that.
[...] |
I'm sure you're well aware that it's that self-replicating attitude
which has led to the loss or decline of a lot of treasured dialect
features -- especially this particular one. A shame. Vandal!
--
Mike. |
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fred
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
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|
Iain wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
Iain wrote:
fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Nonsense; Up until umpteen decades ago, and in fact very possibly even
today, thee was still street coloquey in some British communities. I've
never met anyone who uses it regularly, if at all, but Thomas Hardy
characters(late 19th century) use it, although changing times are a
running theme in his novels -- His poetic license is quite limited
though. The Yorkshire accent in the computer game Worms 2 features a
naturalistic taunt: "I'll get thee and no messin'", archaism not being
a theme. However it is true that poets such as Burns would use them
only in poetry despite them having fallen out of use a hundred years
earlier. "Thee" is barely alive and drawing its last breath in British
idioms such as the reinforcing "...,I tell thee".
There is a character in Last of The Summer Wine who uses it regularly
and naturally. I made a mental note of one phrase: "What's th' doin'
that th' mus'n't be disturb'd?". I guess the actor doesn't talk that
way and it's just an added touch about him believing himself to be
descnded from Robin Hood, but the way it is said("th'") hints at
knowledge by the writer of a recent last few dregs of standard "thou".
~Iain
Yes of course! It's pure Yorkshire isn't it! Perhaps dying out, maybe
already dead....but you just can't be sure until you actually listen to
what people say. I wouldn't be surprised if it is still current in some
places.
Just to carry the argument through to it's conclusion, I would be very
interested to know whether and how a natural user of 'thee' or 'th'
would switch between 'thee' and 'you' (or some other plural 'you'
form): would they do this to denote singular or multiple 'yous' to whom
they are speaking?
We've had a hard enough time establishing that it even exists, so I'm
not sure about the details.
I just saw a T-Shirt featuring Craig David's parody catchphrase: "Bo
selecta, I tell thee." It's second-hand and whimsical, but he grew up
in Thomas Hardy country, where last time I checked, people said "'ee"
for "thee". I would guess offhand from his complexion, age and
lifestyle that it is not ancestrally aquired, i.e. maybe it's alive
among the younger generation.
Or would, perhaps, 'ye' be the right form for talking to a group?
It's hard to tell whether what sounds like "ye" is not merely a modern
corruption of "you", like "ya" is.
Also, is there a 'formal' versus 'informal/intimate' norm which applies
in this kind of English?
Is there anyone from Yorkshire out there who can answer this? : )
Modern Yorkshiremen who say "thee", I guess would not say it at an
interview for a university admission, so in that sense it's informal.
Then again, in a flourish of reasonable prejudice I'd say they are
either so old, non-existent or working class that it probably wouldn't
come to that.
It is used by numerous modern elderly Yorkshirefolk in television drama
and comedy.
In addition to the above, I notice they also say "Dust th'?", "th'"
surely meaning "thou"?
Addition addition: "Thissen" means "thyself".
~Iain
|
Interesting. The more I thought about it the more I was sure it is
still going.
I don't have a telly, and would avoid soaps like the plague even if i
did, but it seems a good thing to me if it's being represented on tv.
I presume it's the mass media which is making us all speak the same
nowadays. (Or maybe not - There must be plenty of academic studies on
that).
Still...no one seems to know whether these old folks would apply it
when talking to a group of more than one...and if not, what form they
would use : )
Guess I'll have to get a telly and watch closely.... |
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Joe Higman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:26 am
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
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"fred" <f5r4e3d@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1129108496.886289.19040@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Just to carry the argument through to it's conclusion, I would be very
interested to know whether and how a natural user of 'thee' or 'th'
would switch between 'thee' and 'you' (or some other plural 'you'
form): would they do this to denote singular or multiple 'yous' to whom
they are speaking?
Or would, perhaps, 'ye' be the right form for talking to a group?
Also, is there a 'formal' versus 'informal/intimate' norm which applies
in this kind of English?
Is there anyone from Yorkshire out there who can answer this? : )
|
I don't know whether it's still used in Yorkshire - I remember "tha" from
Cumberland in the 1960s but the speakers were probably conciously reverting
to a dialect they didn't use in everyday life to confuse the softy
southerner (me). My father, of Cornish stock but a child of the (English
Methodist) manse and who therefore travelled around a bit as a boy used to
recite a poem that went
Don't stab father with the breadknife, mother!
T'were a gift on the day thee were wed.
But if tha must stab father with the breadknife, mother,
Use another knife for the bread.
Fogey |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Calling anyone from Yorkshire who uses 'thee'? if so, ho |
|
|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
[...]
Modern Yorkshiremen who say "thee", I guess would not say it at an
interview for a university admission, so in that sense it's
informal.
Then again, in a flourish of reasonable prejudice I'd say they are
either so old, non-existent or working class that it probably
wouldn't
come to that.
[...]
I'm sure you're well aware that it's that self-replicating attitude
which has led to the loss or decline of a lot of treasured dialect
features -- especially this particular one. A shame. Vandal!
|
Ya cen't staup prohgreyas.
~Iain |
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