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BC
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Numeromania wrote:
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
"You guys" is also used when speaking to a group composed entirely
of
women and/or girls, but there's no simple rule which tells when it
is
appropriate to do so, and there are no doubt occasions when women
or
girls would take offense to such a use.
"you folks" would be quite apt. You can also use "you guys" in an |
informal situation. "You three" also works fine, but I'd still go with
my first suggestion: "so, what'll you folks be doing after dinner?",
tho that might sound amusing coming from soneone who isn't a very
fluent English-speaker with no accent.
-BC
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fred
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:19 pm
Post subject: Re: yous |
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fred wrote:
| Quote: | Numeromania wrote:
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
"You guys" is also used when speaking to a group composed entirely of
women and/or girls, but there's no simple rule which tells when it is
appropriate to do so, and there are no doubt occasions when women or
girls would take offense to such a use. (Just as there are occasions
when women or girls would take offense at being referred to as "gals.")
I'd say "you guys" is a lot safer than "gals" in that regard.
Hey, wouldn't the most grammatically logical (heh!) solution to all
this be to re-instate the use of 'thee' and 'thou' alongside 'you'?
After all, isn't it actually the case that we've ended up using the
polite *plural* form of the 2nd person as the *only* form available to
us for addressing another person ('You' is surely equivalent to the
Spanish 'Usted' - a form of the 2nd person which is pluralised as a
mark of respect).
Hence we are left with just 'you', which is a plural form even when
applied to a single person (i.e. 'you *are*', rather than 'you *is*' ,
or should I say 'art' as in 'thou art'?)
I guess this development came from always taking a safe option when we
weren't sure whether to use a respectful or intimate form of address -
the equivalent of not knowing whether to use 'tu' or 'vous' in French,
and opting to use 'vous' universally to avoid this problem.
But this means we can't make that singular/plural distincion in that
way any more.
Mind you I have to admit this point could all be total bollox on my
part, because I don't really know how the archaic 'thou' mode of
English actually worked!
In the days when that was in common usage, did it allow the speaker to
distinguish between a 'you' meaning and a 'youse' meaning?
If the situation was one of familiarity, was it possible in that
archaic mode of English to distinguish directly between plural and
singular 2nd person forms?
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ok, well here's an answer to my own (rambling unedited) question.
according to this link, a distinction exists between 2nd person
singular and 2nd person plural in BOTH familiar AND formal modes of
speech
http://mrffriends.tripod.com/language/you.html
familiar ; singular - thou plural - ye
formal : singular - you plural - ye |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:30 pm
Post subject: Re: yous |
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fred wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
Mr, T wrote:
Hi everyone,
If I want to refer to "a group of you" during a conversation, what word
should I use ?
For example:
Paul want to ask Peter,Mary and Sam what will they do after dinner.
Then What will Paul ask ?
"What will you three do after dinner ?" or
"What will you do after dinner? " or something else ?
It's youse, with an E at the end, although one seldom actually puts it
in writing.
"What are youse doing?" "Youse two, etc".
~Iain
which culture/dialects/country or region of English would you most
associate this usage with?
|
My own: Southern Scotland.
However, it featured as a comedic example of bad English as spoken in
London in the T.V. comedy Green Green Grass. Boycie, upon hearing his
cockney son say the word: "Youse? Youse? Youse is female sheep!"
~Iain
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: yous |
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Numeromania wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
It's youse, with an E at the end, ...
"Youse" and "yous" are alternative spellings of the same word.
|
That's true, although I think "youse" gives it more officiality, making
it look less like a grammatical error of pluralising "you" with S,
which it is, but is absolved of that status by an E.
~Iain |
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fred
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: yous |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: | fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Mr, T wrote:
Hi everyone,
If I want to refer to "a group of you" during a conversation, what word
should I use ?
For example:
Paul want to ask Peter,Mary and Sam what will they do after dinner.
Then What will Paul ask ?
"What will you three do after dinner ?" or
"What will you do after dinner? " or something else ?
It's youse, with an E at the end, although one seldom actually puts it
in writing.
"What are youse doing?" "Youse two, etc".
~Iain
|
I thought it sounded Scottish. It strikes me as a handy and logical way
of addressing more than one person, so it may not be surprising if it
takes on beyond Scotland.
Having just investigated 'thou' and 'ye' (see my comments in the other
part of the thread), I'm now wondering if 'ye' is still current in some
English forms used in these isles.
I think I've heard 'ye' used in some parts of Ireland, as in 'how
are ye?'. I may be wrong, but I think I recall 'ye' cropping up in the
north of Ireland, perhaps Belfast. I'm wondering if this form is indeed
current in some modes of English, and may carry this plural meaning?
I'll have a chat with a friend of mine from Belfast and see if he can
shed any light...
| Quote: |
which culture/dialects/country or region of English would you most
associate this usage with?
My own: Southern Scotland.
However, it featured as a comedic example of bad English as spoken in
London in the T.V. comedy Green Green Grass. Boycie, upon hearing his
cockney son say the word: "Youse? Youse? Youse is female sheep!"
~Iain |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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fred wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Mr, T wrote:
Hi everyone,
If I want to refer to "a group of you" during a conversation, what word
should I use ?
For example:
Paul want to ask Peter,Mary and Sam what will they do after dinner.
Then What will Paul ask ?
"What will you three do after dinner ?" or
"What will you do after dinner? " or something else ?
It's youse, with an E at the end, although one seldom actually puts it
in writing.
"What are youse doing?" "Youse two, etc".
~Iain
I thought it sounded Scottish. It strikes me as a handy and logical way
of addressing more than one person, so it may not be surprising if it
takes on beyond Scotland.
Having just investigated 'thou' and 'ye' (see my comments in the other
part of the thread), I'm now wondering if 'ye' is still current in some
English forms used in these isles.
I think I've heard 'ye' used in some parts of Ireland, as in 'how
are ye?'. I may be wrong, but I think I recall 'ye' cropping up in the
north of Ireland, perhaps Belfast. I'm wondering if this form is indeed
current in some modes of English, and may carry this plural meaning?
I'll have a chat with a friend of mine from Belfast and see if he can
shed any light...
|
The Scottish working class(discernably the more dialectal) say "ye"
unless it would be the most operative word, in which case they just say
"you". It is certainly "ye" and not "y'" or "ya".
Actually, people who say "ye" also say "yese": "Are yese comin' wi'
us?"
~Iain |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:23 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128967374.725233.22840@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Mr, T wrote:
Hi everyone,
If I want to refer to "a group of you" during a conversation,
what word
should I use ?
For example:
Paul want to ask Peter,Mary and Sam what will they do after
dinner.
Then What will Paul ask ?
"What will you three do after dinner ?" or
"What will you do after dinner? " or something else ?
It's youse, with an E at the end, although one seldom actually puts
it
in writing.
"What are youse doing?" "Youse two, etc".
~Iain
I thought it sounded Scottish. It strikes me as a handy and logical way
of addressing more than one person, so it may not be surprising if it
takes on beyond Scotland.
Having just investigated 'thou' and 'ye' (see my comments in the other
part of the thread), I'm now wondering if 'ye' is still current in some
English forms used in these isles.
I think I've heard 'ye' used in some parts of Ireland, as in 'how
are ye?'. I may be wrong, but I think I recall 'ye' cropping up in the
north of Ireland, perhaps Belfast. I'm wondering if this form is indeed
current in some modes of English, and may carry this plural meaning?
I'll have a chat with a friend of mine from Belfast and see if he can
shed any light...
The Scottish working class(discernably the more dialectal) say "ye"
unless it would be the most operative word, in which case they just say
"you". It is certainly "ye" and not "y'" or "ya".
Actually, people who say "ye" also say "yese": "Are yese comin' wi'
us?"
|
I am not sure about authenticiy, or singular v plural, but I have seen some
Irish dialect writing that shows "yez". |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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Iain wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Actually, people who say "ye" also say "yese": "Are yese comin' wi'
us?"
~Iain
|
Compare Irish "yez". I believe it's sometimes spelt "yiz" in
Scotland. There's an Aus "youse", too, but I was (virtually) kicked
if I ever used it.
--
Mike. |
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fred
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
[...]
Actually, people who say "ye" also say "yese": "Are yese comin' wi'
us?"
~Iain
Compare Irish "yez". I believe it's sometimes spelt "yiz" in
Scotland. There's an Aus "youse", too, but I was (virtually) kicked
if I ever used it.
--
Mike.
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Yes, I get the feeling that the (northern) Irish form is
singular 'ye' plural 'yeez'(a long 'e' sound)
so it's not really the same as the plural 'ye' which would go with the
singular 'you' or 'thee' in the formal/poetic English of
Elizabethan/Jacobean times.
sounds from what others are saying here that it has its counterpart in
Scotland. |
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JPG
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:21 pm
Post subject: Late ME verb forms, was: yous |
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On 10 Oct 2005 09:30:48 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
fred wrote:
Iain wrote:
Mr, T wrote:
Hi everyone,
If I want to refer to "a group of you" during a conversation, what word
should I use ?
For example:
Paul want to ask Peter,Mary and Sam what will they do after dinner.
Then What will Paul ask ?
"What will you three do after dinner ?" or
"What will you do after dinner? " or something else ?
It's youse, with an E at the end, although one seldom actually puts it
in writing.
"What are youse doing?" "Youse two, etc".
~Iain
which culture/dialects/country or region of English would you most
associate this usage with?
My own: Southern Scotland.
|
Also common heard in Virginia and maybe other southern states of the US.
"Youse guys" .
I sometimes wonder why the second person singular "thou ***(e)st" as used by the
KJV of the Bible and part-time by Shakespeare died out, along with the third
person verb ending -(e)th. Clearly Shakespearian times were a time of
transition and/or the usage of these forms may have been regional.
Would I also be right in assuming that "thou" was informal, like German "du" and
French "tu", with the plural form "you" being formal when used as a singular
pronoun - a sort of watered down royal "we".
JPG
| Quote: |
However, it featured as a comedic example of bad English as spoken in
London in the T.V. comedy Green Green Grass. Boycie, upon hearing his
cockney son say the word: "Youse? Youse? Youse is female sheep!"
~Iain |
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fred
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:11 am
Post subject: Re: Late ME verb forms, was: yous |
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JPG wrote:
| Quote: | Would I also be right in assuming that "thou" was informal, like German "du" and
French "tu", with the plural form "you" being formal when used as a singular
pronoun - a sort of watered down royal "we".
|
I had the same assumption as you, namely that 'thee' and 'thou'
are archaic forms of the familiar or intimate 2nd person singular.
Following that train of thought, I imagined them falling out of
usage in order to avoid the sometimes troublesome dilemma of whether to
use 'tu' or 'vous'. (the polite form winning out, just to be on
the safe side).
However, I wonder if there is anything to what is written on this page
I came across by chance (and whose authority I do not vouch for) -
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/bacon-theethou.html
'...let us establish that "thee and thou" were NEVER common
street English...Neither are they the equivalent of "du" in Germanl
That is, they are not familiar as opposed to formal.
Rather, "thee and thou" are poetic forms used in religious language
and love poetry!...' |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:44 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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In the USA, most people use only "you" for both singular and plural.
"You guys" is informal, speech only, and can be heard everywhere.
"Youse" is plural in Brooklyn and parts of New Jersey. Maybe some
other places too.
"You all" is Deep South, maybe all of the South.
"Y'all" is Texas, spreading east and north from there -- and maybe
west.
"Youse," "you all," and "y'all" are all plurals. Never singular --
except when used by comedians who have never lived in any of those
areas, editors who exist in Manhattan and think they'll put some
verisimilitude in stories and novels set in those areas, and Oklahomans
who use "y'all" as a singular. "You" is also a plural, and heard more
often in those areas; the definitely plural forms are used only for
emphasis or unambiguity.
Cece |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: yous |
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In the USA, most people use only "you" for both singular and plural.
"You guys" is informal, speech only, and can be heard everywhere.
"Youse" is plural in Brooklyn and parts of New Jersey. Maybe some
other places too.
"You all" is Deep South, maybe all of the South.
"Y'all" is Texas, spreading east and north from there -- and maybe
west.
"Youse," "you all," and "y'all" are all plurals. Never singular --
except when used by comedians who have never lived in any of those
areas, editors who exist in Manhattan and think they'll put some
verisimilitude in stories and novels set in those areas, and Oklahomans
who use "y'all" as a singular. "You" is also a plural, and heard more
often in those areas; the definitely plural forms are used only for
emphasis or unambiguity.
Cece |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: Late ME verb forms, was: yous |
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fred wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | However, I wonder if there is anything to what is written on this
page
I came across by chance (and whose authority I do not vouch for) -
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/bacon-theethou.html
'...let us establish that "thee and thou" were NEVER common
street English...Neither are they the equivalent of "du" in Germanl
That is, they are not familiar as opposed to formal.
Rather, "thee and thou" are poetic forms used in religious language
and love poetry!...'
|
You're right to be cautious. I didn't go to the page, so I don't know
which maniac wrote it; but you can take it from me, among many other
UK residents, that it's baloney. Go to the right street, and you'll
hear them tomorrow.
--
Mike. |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Late ME verb forms, was: yous |
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fred wrote:
| Quote: | JPG wrote:
Would I also be right in assuming that "thou" was informal, like German "du" and
French "tu", with the plural form "you" being formal when used as a singular
pronoun - a sort of watered down royal "we".
I had the same assumption as you, namely that 'thee' and 'thou'
are archaic forms of the familiar or intimate 2nd person singular.
Following that train of thought, I imagined them falling out of
usage in order to avoid the sometimes troublesome dilemma of whether to
use 'tu' or 'vous'. (the polite form winning out, just to be on
the safe side).
However, I wonder if there is anything to what is written on this page
I came across by chance (and whose authority I do not vouch for) -
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/bacon-theethou.html
'...let us establish that "thee and thou" were NEVER common
street English...Neither are they the equivalent of "du" in Germanl
That is, they are not familiar as opposed to formal.
Rather, "thee and thou" are poetic forms used in religious language
and love poetry!...'
|
Nonsense; Up until umpteen decades ago, and in fact very possibly even
today, thee was still street coloquey in some British communities. I've
never met anyone who uses it regularly, if at all, but Thomas Hardy
characters(late 19th century) use it, although changing times are a
running theme in his novels -- His poetic license is quite limited
though. The Yorkshire accent in the computer game Worms 2 features a
naturalistic taunt: "I'll get thee and no messin'", archaism not being
a theme. However it is true that poets such as Burns would use them
only in poetry despite them having fallen out of use a hundred years
earlier. "Thee" is barely alive and drawing its last breath in British
idioms such as the reinforcing "...,I tell thee".
There is a character in Last of The Summer Wine who uses it regularly
and naturally. I made a mental note of one phrase: "What's th' doin'
that th' mus'n't be disturb'd?". I guess the actor doesn't talk that
way and it's just an added touch about him believing himself to be
descnded from Robin Hood, but the way it is said("th'") hints at
knowledge by the writer of a recent last few dregs of standard "thou".
~Iain |
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