| Author |
Message |
Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:34 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Will spake thusly:
Tony Cooper wrote:
[...]
Should it be brought up that if you add an "s" to bus that it makes it
more romantic?
Would you be referring to the sense of "bussing" meaning kissing (if
indeed it does mean kissing)? I was going to ask about that, but I
didn't want to offend Donna, and I don't have a gmail address.
I never heard that. Is it related to the French/Latin/Italian words
for kiss, e.g. baiser? We must remind readers that although the noun
is unexceptionable, the verb is considerablyy cruder: "un baiser" - a
kiss; "baisez-moi" - fuck me.
|
I thought it's in Shakespeare but RhymeZone shows it's in the
not-very-well-known ones:
Yond towers, whose wanton tops do buss the clouds, Troilus and
Cressida: IV, v
Thy knee bussing the stones--for in such business Coriolanus: III, ii
Thou dost give me flattering busses. King Henry IV, part II: II, iv
And buss thee as thy wife. misery's love, King John: III, iv
I guess it must be elsewhere -- poetry? Historical novels?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
I also want to know why Leftpondians call a fringe of hair "bangs".
When I first became aware of this usage, in relation to hair rather
than explosions or exclamation marks (probably around the time I read
"A for Alibi" by Sue Grafton), I assumed that it meant those
fantastically depending curls beloved of the Pre-Raphaelites. It came
as a real shock when I realised it was the squitty bit hiding the brow.
This seems to be Archives Day. I wrote about "bang" in 2000:
Based on Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionary:]
[First there was the adverb bang, meaning to do something suddenly,
directly, or squarely. Thus, "to cut it bang off" would mean to cut
squarely off. This was applied to docking horses tails, and it was
applied to human haircuts. It probably referred to the horses first,
but whether it was applied to people in imitation of the horses, or
merely from the basic meaning, is unclear.
Marvellous - ta! I'm pretty sure the noun "bangs" never crossed the
pond is because we don't have the expression "cut it bang off", or at
least I've never heard it.
|
I'm relying on memory here instead of looking it up. As I recall, it's
in the class on interjections that might come from sound effects --
"I found it right spang in the middle of the road."
I think I've seen those in British novels, haven't I?
--
Uncertain -- Donna Richoux |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:43:17 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
| Quote: | stylish.inkyu@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello every one,
When we go to a restaurant, we see a person who carries plates. We call
them "busboy". Where does this word "busboy" come from?
It's nice to see lots of questions, but I wonder whether some teacher
gave the assignment for everyone in the class to post a question to
a.u.e today.
If that is happening, *please* read "Intro A: Welcome and Guidelines."
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/intro_a.shtml
particularly the part about not asking questions that could be answered
by a dictionary. Online dictionaries like m-w.com give histories of
words, including "busboy".
|
There is no dictator here, Stylish, actually in charge: ask whatever
questions you'd like to ask. Our Donna, attempting to put the fear of
God into most newcomers, get her tits in a wringer when questions
don't exactly conform to what she'd like to see, but she is just one
AUE member among many.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 15:55:30 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
| Quote: | Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
Would you be referring to the sense of "bussing" meaning kissing (if
indeed it does mean kissing)? I was going to ask about that, but I
didn't want to offend Donna, and I don't have a gmail address.
Americans know that meaning only from Shakespeare, vaguely.
|
I'm not sure about that. Those of us who know the word and the
meaning of the word acquired this knowledge somewhere, but I doubt
that it was acquired from reading Shakespeare. We just pick up odd
bits of knowledge along the way, and some is passed person-to-person.
I could know of "buss" without ever reading Shakespeare or even
hearing it or seeing it used by someone that has never read
Shakespeare.
| Quote: | Oh, tell
Tony that the verb as in "to bus tables" came after "busboy."
|
Are you not speaking to me directly? Will I soon become "Cooper"?
It might be important here, but the sequence of the development of
words and formations from words is generally not important in defining
a word. If someone asks about busboy, they are usually interested in
the current meaning and usage. Thus, a busboy is a person that clears
the table and takes the dishes to the kitchen, and to clear the table
is to bus the table, is the explanation that the person is looking
for. The person is rarely interested in the fact that one term
preceded the other in use or is from some root word.
It's only in places like aue that the first printed instance of the
word, and the development of the forms of the word, are considered
mentionable. I think there's a difference between explaining a word
or term to a person that has just come across a word or term they
don't know, and a full-blown aue-type explanation with OED cites.
| Quote: | I also want to know why Leftpondians call a fringe of hair "bangs".
When I first became aware of this usage, in relation to hair rather
than explosions or exclamation marks (probably around the time I read
"A for Alibi" by Sue Grafton), I assumed that it meant those
fantastically depending curls beloved of the Pre-Raphaelites. It came
as a real shock when I realised it was the squitty bit hiding the brow.
This seems to be Archives Day. I wrote about "bang" in 2000:
Based on Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionary:]
[First there was the adverb bang, meaning to do something suddenly,
directly, or squarely. Thus, "to cut it bang off" would mean to cut
squarely off. This was applied to docking horses tails, and it was
applied to human haircuts. It probably referred to the horses first,
but whether it was applied to people in imitation of the horses, or
merely from the basic meaning, is unclear.
|
--
Making an effort to include a condemnable term in every posting.
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:15 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | John Dean spake thusly:
From OED:
omnibus:
" 4. A man or boy who assists a waiter at an hotel, restaurant,
etc. 1888 Star 11 Aug. 4/5 To pay to what is known in a restaurant
as an 'omnibus', i.e. a lad that clears the tables. 1897 Daily
News 19 June 2/6 Omnibuses+apprentices- who wait on the waiters. "
I see. But I don't see why. Why is a clearing lad named an omnibus?
Is he by, with or for everybody?
|
Just a guess, but perhaps this followed a stage in which different
people were responsible for dealing with different things (e.g.,
plates, glassware), and fashion changed so that now one person cleared
everything.
Another guess, perhaps more plausible, would be that it's short for a
Latin phrase that means something like "does everything". That is, a
general helper. Sort of a 19th century equivalent of a "gofer".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I value writers such as Fiske.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |They serve as valuable object
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |lessons by showing that the most
|punctilious compliance with the
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rules of usage has so little to do
(650)857-7572 |with either writing or thinking
|well.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --Richard Hershberger |
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mUs1Ka
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:13 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
Marvellous - ta! I'm pretty sure the noun "bangs" never crossed the
pond is because we don't have the expression "cut it bang off", or at
least I've never heard it.
I'm relying on memory here instead of looking it up. As I recall, it's
in the class on interjections that might come from sound effects --
"I found it right spang in the middle of the road."
I think I've seen those in British novels, haven't I?
|
You almost got it bang on (smack bang in the middle).
--
Ray. |
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mUs1Ka
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
|
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Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
| Quote: | the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> writes:
John Dean spake thusly:
From OED:
omnibus:
" 4. A man or boy who assists a waiter at an hotel, restaurant,
etc. 1888 Star 11 Aug. 4/5 To pay to what is known in a restaurant
as an 'omnibus', i.e. a lad that clears the tables. 1897 Daily
News 19 June 2/6 Omnibuses+apprentices- who wait on the waiters. "
I see. But I don't see why. Why is a clearing lad named an omnibus?
Is he by, with or for everybody?
Just a guess, but perhaps this followed a stage in which different
people were responsible for dealing with different things (e.g.,
plates, glassware), and fashion changed so that now one person cleared
everything.
Another guess, perhaps more plausible, would be that it's short for a
Latin phrase that means something like "does everything". That is, a
general helper. Sort of a 19th century equivalent of a "gofer".
|
Is that a fact(otum)?
--
Ray. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:24 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
Would you be referring to the sense of "bussing" meaning kissing (if
indeed it does mean kissing)? I was going to ask about that, but I
didn't want to offend Donna, and I don't have a gmail address.
Americans know that meaning only from Shakespeare, vaguely.
I'm not sure about that. Those of us who know the word and the
meaning of the word acquired this knowledge somewhere, but I doubt
that it was acquired from reading Shakespeare. We just pick up odd
bits of knowledge along the way, and some is passed person-to-person.
I could know of "buss" without ever reading Shakespeare or even
hearing it or seeing it used by someone that has never read
Shakespeare.
|
Yes, I had second thoughts on that -- see another post. I still have
Elizabethan associations, though.
| Quote: |
Oh, tell
Tony that the verb as in "to bus tables" came after "busboy."
Are you not speaking to me directly? Will I soon become "Cooper"?
|
I admit you were an afterthought -- I wanted to get that in without the
bother of hunting down the actual post and affixing it properly. I know
how thick-skinned you are.
| Quote: |
It might be important here, but the sequence of the development of
words and formations from words is generally not important in defining
a word. If someone asks about busboy, they are usually interested in
the current meaning and usage.
|
Quote original poster:
| Quote: | Where does this word "busboy" come from?
|
It reminds me of "man of all work, and a bit of the "boots." Robertson
Ay in the original "Mary Poppins" was the boot-boy.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | mUs1Ka wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
"I found it right spang in the middle of the road."
I think I've seen those in British novels, haven't I?
You almost got it bang on (smack bang in the middle).
I know "plumb spang in the middle".
|
Smack dab in the middle, according to Joe Williams. |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
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"mUs1Ka" <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> writes:
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> writes:
I see. But I don't see why. Why is a clearing lad named an
omnibus? Is he by, with or for everybody?
Just a guess, but perhaps this followed a stage in which different
people were responsible for dealing with different things (e.g.,
plates, glassware), and fashion changed so that now one person
cleared everything.
Another guess, perhaps more plausible, would be that it's short for
a Latin phrase that means something like "does everything". That
is, a general helper. Sort of a 19th century equivalent of a
"gofer".
Is that a fact(otum)?
|
Precisely.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:49 am
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
|
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trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
| Quote: | Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
Would you be referring to the sense of "bussing" meaning kissing (if
indeed it does mean kissing)? I was going to ask about that, but I
didn't want to offend Donna, and I don't have a gmail address.
Americans know that meaning only from Shakespeare, vaguely.
|
Except for those of us who learned it orally, as it were. At least as
a noun, "a buss on the cheek" doesn't sound at all unusual to me.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Are you okay?"
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"I'm made of felt....Add by dose
|cubs off."
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
|
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mUs1Ka wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
"I found it right spang in the middle of the road."
I think I've seen those in British novels, haven't I?
You almost got it bang on (smack bang in the middle).
|
I know "plumb spang in the middle".
--
Mike. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:41 am
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
|
|
the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean spake thusly:
the Omrud wrote:
John Dean spake thusly:
stylish.inkyu@gmail.com wrote:
Hello every one,
When we go to a restaurant, we see a person who carries plates. We
call them "busboy". Where does this word "busboy" come from?
From Latin "omnibus" "for all". In this sense used for a lad who
clears the tables and, like the transport, omnibus is abbreviated
to bus.
I reckon the derivation of the US "bus boy" is more closely related
to the means of transport than to the original Latin word. A bus
boy "buses" or carries items from tables back into the kitchen. "To
bus" is used in US English as an specialised meaning of "to
transport".
From OED:
omnibus:
" 4. A man or boy who assists a waiter at an hotel, restaurant, etc.
1888 Star 11 Aug. 4/5 To pay to what is known in a restaurant as
an 'omnibus', i.e. a lad that clears the tables. 1897 Daily News 19
June 2/6 Omnibuses+apprentices- who wait on the waiters. "
I see. But I don't see why. Why is a clearing lad named an omnibus?
Is he by, with or for everybody?
|
Dative plural (like the Routemaster) "for all". I guess it was intended
to mean "for all the clearing up" or "for all the odd jobs". Kinda like
dogsbody or jack of all trades.
I keep wanting to play a lick on the guitar and sing "The busboy took
the message and he wrote it on the wall".
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
|
|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 15:55:30 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
Would you be referring to the sense of "bussing" meaning kissing (if
indeed it does mean kissing)? I was going to ask about that, but I
didn't want to offend Donna, and I don't have a gmail address.
Americans know that meaning only from Shakespeare, vaguely.
I'm not sure about that. Those of us who know the word and the
meaning of the word acquired this knowledge somewhere, but I doubt
that it was acquired from reading Shakespeare. We just pick up odd
bits of knowledge along the way, and some is passed person-to-person.
I could know of "buss" without ever reading Shakespeare or even
hearing it or seeing it used by someone that has never read
Shakespeare.
|
Lots of people used it. OED has cites from Fielding, Browning, Tennyson,
Richardson and more besides. But maybe you lived in a community where
the word was still in use?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: the busboy |
|
|
Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
Will spake thusly:
Tony Cooper wrote:
[...]
Should it be brought up that if you add an "s" to bus that it makes it
more romantic?
Would you be referring to the sense of "bussing" meaning kissing (if
indeed it does mean kissing)? I was going to ask about that, but I
didn't want to offend Donna, and I don't have a gmail address.
I never heard that. Is it related to the French/Latin/Italian words
for kiss, e.g. baiser? We must remind readers that although the noun
is unexceptionable, the verb is considerablyy cruder: "un baiser" - a
kiss; "baisez-moi" - fuck me.
I thought it's in Shakespeare but RhymeZone shows it's in the
not-very-well-known ones:
Yond towers, whose wanton tops do buss the clouds, Troilus and
Cressida: IV, v
Thy knee bussing the stones--for in such business Coriolanus: III, ii
Thou dost give me flattering busses. King Henry IV, part II: II, iv
And buss thee as thy wife. misery's love, King John: III, iv
I guess it must be elsewhere -- poetry? Historical novels?
|
"Kissing and bussing differ both in this:
We buss our wantons, but our wives we kiss."
--Robert Herrick
I learned "buss" from literary sources, as you say, and also from
people explaining why the double-the-final-consonant rule doesn't apply
to the verb "bus".
--
Jerry Friedman |
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