| Author |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | It doesn't seem to have reached the ears of OED1 or its '33
_Supplement_. (I looked under "more", too.)
And another interesting thing is that I don't seem to find the
negative sense -- whether as two words or one -- in there, either.
Even the negative sense strikes me as a distinctive enough usage to
have deserved mention, so is it possible that it's rather recent?
|
The 1946 Merriam-Webster collegiate has no entry for "anymore". It has:
anybody, anyhow, anyone, anything, anyway, anyways, anywise.
The current edition (MW11) dates it to the 14th century and says:
Although both anymore and any more are found in
written use, in the 20th century anymore is the more
common styling. Anymore is regularly used in
negative <no one can be natural anymore -- May
Sarton>, interrogative <do you read much anymore?>,
and conditional <if you do that anymore, I'll leave>
contexts and in certain positive constructions <the
Washingtonian is too sophisticated to believe
anymore in solutions -- Russell Baker>. In many
regions of the United States the use of anymore in
sense 2 is quite common in positive constructions,
especially in speech <everybody's cool anymore --
Bill White> <every time we leave the house anymore,
I play a game called "Stump the Housebreaker" --
Erma Bombeck>. The positive use appears to have been
of Midland origin, but it is now reported to be
widespread in all speech areas of the United States
except New England.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:52:28 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> said:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
See http://tinyurl.com/d9jz6 for remarks on "anymore" in the
_Dictionary of American Regional English_.
Of particular interest to me is that positive "anymore" is
still found in the speech of Northern Ireland and that the
earliest recorded examples are from there.
I wonder, though, what they mean by "recorded". It could
mean attested, or it could mean recorded on a mechanical or
electronic recording device. I'm guessing they mean the
former.
It doesn't seem to have reached the ears of OED1 or its '33
_Supplement_. (I looked under "more", too.)
|
My impression is that while American usage gurus and
dictionaries recognize the existence of the adverb
"anymore", the British seem to ignore it or to regard it as
no more than a variant spelling -- of questionable
acceptability -- of "any more".
The _New Shorter Oxford_ says "any more" is an adverb. The
_Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary_ says "anymore" is
"US for 'any more'".
Robert Burchfield, in the grossly misnamed _The New Fowler's
Modern English Usage_, says
anymore, any more
Logically it would seem sensible to reserve the
separated form for contexts in which the sense is
'even the smallest amount' [...] and the one-word
form for the sense 'any longer'. But the language
does not work as neatly as that. By and large
_any more_ is used in all areas when the sense
required is 'even the smallest amount'. When the
required sense is 'any longer' there are sharp
divisions. AmE and other forms of English
outside the UK tend to favour _anymore_, and
this form is now being adopted by some British
writers and publishing houses. The majority of
authors and printers in the UK, however, still
print _any more_ for this second sense.
But I don't think his "even the smallest amount" is a good
definition of the adjectival phrase "any more". I think it
more often means something like "any greater quantit". An
illustration of the meaning distinction of the adverb and
the adjectival phrase is
I don't buy books anymore.
I don't need any more books.
(Anymore I just read book reviews.) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Robert Burchfield, in the grossly misnamed _The New Fowler's
Modern English Usage_, says
anymore, any more
Logically it would seem sensible to reserve the
separated form for contexts in which the sense is
'even the smallest amount' [...] and the one-word
form for the sense 'any longer'. But the language
does not work as neatly as that. By and large
_any more_ is used in all areas when the sense
required is 'even the smallest amount'. When the
required sense is 'any longer' there are sharp
divisions. AmE and other forms of English
outside the UK tend to favour _anymore_, and
this form is now being adopted by some British
writers and publishing houses. The majority of
authors and printers in the UK, however, still
print _any more_ for this second sense.
But I don't think his "even the smallest amount" is a good
definition of the adjectival phrase "any more". I think it
more often means something like "any greater quantit". An
illustration of the meaning distinction of the adverb and
the adjectival phrase is
I don't buy books anymore.
I don't need any more books.
(Anymore I just read book reviews.)
|
I think Bob B. meant it as in "I don't like it any more than you do".
And I don't think Bob B. is to be blamed for keeping the Fowler name
on the spine. On the one hand, he does seem to feel a duty of homage
(in his Preface he says he hopes the '26 edition will stay in print
for another 70 years); and on the other, he admits there that the
book had been largely rewritten, and explains why very clearly -- so
I suspect that marketing considerations outside his ambit were doing
their work. There's a long tradition, as you know, of honouring the
originator in revisions of these respected books. (I once mentioned
"Mountford's Bradley's Arnold", a Latin prose manual, in AUE. I'm
glad Dr Arnold's name was handed down in this apostolic succession.
Webster comes to mind, too.)
--
Mike.
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:49 am
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
It doesn't seem to have reached the ears of OED1 or its '33
_Supplement_. (I looked under "more", too.)
And another interesting thing is that I don't seem to find the
negative sense -- whether as two words or one -- in there, either.
Even the negative sense strikes me as a distinctive enough usage to
have deserved mention, so is it possible that it's rather recent?
The 1946 Merriam-Webster collegiate has no entry for "anymore". It has:
anybody, anyhow, anyone, anything, anyway, anyways, anywise.
The current edition (MW11) dates it to the 14th century and says:
Although both anymore and any more are found in
written use, in the 20th century anymore is the more
common styling. Anymore is regularly used in
negative <no one can be natural anymore -- May
Sarton>, interrogative <do you read much anymore?>,
and conditional <if you do that anymore, I'll leave
contexts and in certain positive constructions <the
Washingtonian is too sophisticated to believe
anymore in solutions -- Russell Baker>. In many
regions of the United States the use of anymore in
sense 2 is quite common in positive constructions,
especially in speech <everybody's cool anymore --
Bill White> <every time we leave the house anymore,
I play a game called "Stump the Housebreaker" --
Erma Bombeck>. The positive use appears to have been
of Midland origin, but it is now reported to be
widespread in all speech areas of the United States
except New England.
I'm not certain about the example of conditional usage, but in all the |
cases apart from the American/N Ireland one, "anymore" can be replaced
with "any longer". This is what makes the usage so strange to those of
us unused to it.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:13 am
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:50:48 GMT, Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:21:18 +1000, "John Holmes" <see sig
said:
sage wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:41:49 -0700, "Richard Yates"
rayates53@comcast.net> said:
[...]
(Snip)
But there's an important exception in the case of "anymore".
When it's used in the positive sense as in "Anymore, I read
only detective stories", the "any" and the "more" are
stressed equally.
I've never heard "anymore" used as you've shown it here. Is this
regional US?
It seems to be regarded as acceptable by about 5% of the US population,
according to this survey:
http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_54
.html
The maps don't show much in the way of a regional trend.
See http://tinyurl.com/d9jz6 for remarks on "anymore" in the
_Dictionary of American Regional English_.
Of particular interest to me is that positive "anymore" is
still found in the speech of Northern Ireland and that the
earliest recorded examples are from there.
|
Interesting. I've lived in Northern Ireland since 1972 and can't recall
ever hearing this use of "anymore". Perhaps it is a very localised
usage.
| Quote: | I wonder, though, what they mean by "recorded". It could
mean attested, or it could mean recorded on a mechanical or
electronic recording device. I'm guessing they mean the
former.
-- |
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:26 am
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:13:12 +0100, Peter Duncanson
<mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting. I've lived in Northern Ireland since 1972 and can't recall
ever hearing this use of "anymore". Perhaps it is a very localised
usage.
Googling "Groups" and soc.culture.irish, I see 13,000 instances of |
posts containing "anymore". One gem, from Unki and directed at me,
says:
"You can't call me fat boy anymore because I am not fat
anymore. I was but I am not now. I might be even the best looking man
on this group right now. Couple that with my creative intelligence,
wisdom and humanity/kindness not to mention my brilliant wit, I am
some package oh, and I have a ruthless bubble gum card corporate chick
in a power suit putting out a special limited edition lesbian
holographic trading card in my honour. Not too shabby. You are a no
talent and you are jealous of my status on this group and my boyish
good looks. Find a newhobby because you are not very good at this one.
Oh and I have alabaster buttocks and large willy as well."
And from another poster who managed to jam three "anymore"s in one
post:
"This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Con’s. I don’t want to meet
anymore people who turn out to be nice and I can’t abuse them on SCI
anymore."
(A "SCI-Con" is the sci term for a "boink".)
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:26:41 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | And from another poster who managed to jam three "anymore"s in one
post:
"This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Con’s. I don’t want to meet
anymore people who turn out to be nice and I can’t abuse them on SCI
anymore."
|
The word anymore can be used correctly. All three uses of it by your
friend are blatant errors. A correct use of it is "I don't get into
town much anymore".
--
Charles Riggs |
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Salvatore Volatile
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:13:12 +0100, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
Interesting. I've lived in Northern Ireland since 1972 and can't recall
ever hearing this use of "anymore". Perhaps it is a very localised
usage.
Googling "Groups" and soc.culture.irish, I see 13,000 instances of
posts containing "anymore". One gem, from Unki and directed at me,
says:
"You can't call me fat boy anymore because I am not fat
anymore.
|
That's the ordinary AmE (+?) negative polarity "anymore". "Positive
anymore", which I've noticed you using FTTT, Coop, is what's being
discussed here, I think -- it's "positive anymore" that is supposedly of
Ulsterian origin.
| Quote: | "This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Cons.
I dont want to meet
anymore people who turn out to be nice
|
That should be "any more" -- that's not the adverbial "anymore" of either
positive or negative type.
| Quote: | and I cant abuse them on SCI anymore."
|
That's the ordinary negative polarity "anymore". |
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John Holmes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: |
The 1946 Merriam-Webster collegiate has no entry for "anymore". It
has: anybody, anyhow, anyone, anything, anyway, anyways, anywise.
The current edition (MW11) dates it to the 14th century and says:
Although both anymore and any more are found in
written use, in the 20th century anymore is the more
common styling. Anymore is regularly used in
negative <no one can be natural anymore -- May
Sarton>, interrogative <do you read much anymore?>,
and conditional <if you do that anymore, I'll leave
contexts and in certain positive constructions <the
Washingtonian is too sophisticated to believe
anymore in solutions -- Russell Baker>. In many
regions of the United States the use of anymore in
sense 2 is quite common in positive constructions,
especially in speech <everybody's cool anymore --
Bill White> <every time we leave the house anymore,
I play a game called "Stump the Housebreaker" --
Erma Bombeck>. The positive use appears to have been
of Midland origin, but it is now reported to be
widespread in all speech areas of the United States
except New England.
|
Are they right to call the Russell Baker example a positive
construction? Doesn't it mean that the Washingtonian is so sophisticated
that it does not believe in solutions any more?
That looks like enough of a negative trigger to me. I wonder whether
John Lawler is reading this.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:07:57 +0100, Charles Riggs <chriggs@éircom.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:26:41 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
And from another poster who managed to jam three "anymore"s in one
post:
"This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Con’s. I don’t want to meet
anymore people who turn out to be nice and I can’t abuse them on SCI
anymore."
The word anymore can be used correctly. All three uses of it by your
friend are blatant errors. A correct use of it is "I don't get into
town much anymore".
|
I don't see anything wrong with the third one. The other two would be better
with a space between "any" and "more", but perhaps that's just one of those
regional variations like the US usage of "alot" to mean "a lot". Perhaps these
are examples of amore general trend towards conjunctive writing.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Steve Hayes wrote:
| Quote: | Charles Riggs wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote:
And from another poster who managed to jam three "anymore"s in one
post:
"This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Con's. I don't want to
meet anymore people who turn out to be nice and I can't abuse them
on SCI anymore."
The word anymore can be used correctly. All three uses of it by your
friend are blatant errors. A correct use of it is "I don't get into
town much anymore".
I don't see anything wrong with the third one.
|
Me neither.
| Quote: | ..........The other two would be
better with a space between "any" and "more", but perhaps that's just
one of those regional variations like the US usage of "alot" to mean
"a lot". Perhaps these are examples of amore general trend towards
conjunctive writing.
|
That "alot" business is well-known, but I don't think it's actually seen
that much. So much is made of it that those who were once guilty of
using it have seen the error of their ways. (My comment doesn't include
chat rooms or phone text messages or similar venues.)
--
Maria Conlon |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:49:57 GMT, "Maria Conlon" <maria.c-b@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Steve Hayes wrote:
Charles Riggs wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote:
And from another poster who managed to jam three "anymore"s in one
post:
"This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Con's. I don't want to
meet anymore people who turn out to be nice and I can't abuse them
on SCI anymore."
The word anymore can be used correctly. All three uses of it by your
friend are blatant errors. A correct use of it is "I don't get into
town much anymore".
I don't see anything wrong with the third one.
Me neither.
..........The other two would be
better with a space between "any" and "more", but perhaps that's just
one of those regional variations like the US usage of "alot" to mean
"a lot". Perhaps these are examples of amore general trend towards
conjunctive writing.
That "alot" business is well-known, but I don't think it's actually seen
that much. So much is made of it that those who were once guilty of
using it have seen the error of their ways. (My comment doesn't include
chat rooms or phone text messages or similar venues.)
|
If that can happen, perhaps unskunking is possible!
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:58 am
Post subject: Re: "cannot" and "can not" |
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Nrdo Hesson wrote:
| Quote: | Perhaps I could rephrase the question.
Are there any situations where "can not" would
be a preferred construction, or even necessary?
Can it be eliminated entirely?
|
If I were going to eliminate one, it would be "cannot", though it's
standard in the U.S. The usual justification for keeping both is rare
constructions such as "You can tell him, or you can not tell him."
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Peter Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 13:50:48 GMT, Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net
wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:21:18 +1000, "John Holmes" <see sig
said:
sage wrote:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:41:49 -0700, "Richard Yates"
rayates53@comcast.net> said:
[...]
(Snip)
But there's an important exception in the case of "anymore".
When it's used in the positive sense as in "Anymore, I read
only detective stories", the "any" and the "more" are
stressed equally.
I've never heard "anymore" used as you've shown it here. Is this
regional US?
It seems to be regarded as acceptable by about 5% of the US population,
according to this survey:
http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_54
.html
The maps don't show much in the way of a regional trend.
See http://tinyurl.com/d9jz6 for remarks on "anymore" in the
_Dictionary of American Regional English_.
Of particular interest to me is that positive "anymore" is
still found in the speech of Northern Ireland and that the
earliest recorded examples are from there.
Interesting. I've lived in Northern Ireland since 1972 and can't recall
ever hearing this use of "anymore". Perhaps it is a very localised
usage.
I wonder, though, what they mean by "recorded". It could
mean attested, or it could mean recorded on a mechanical or
electronic recording device. I'm guessing they mean the
former.
Perhaps too much is being read into "recorded" by people forgetting you |
record something by writing it down with pencil and paper.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:41 am
Post subject: Re: Positive "anymore" [was: Re: Stress and articulation [wa |
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Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:26:41 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
And from another poster who managed to jam three "anymore"s in one
post:
"This is why I am not going to anymore SCI-Con’s. I don’t want to meet
anymore people who turn out to be nice and I can’t abuse them on SCI
anymore."
The word anymore can be used correctly. All three uses of it by your
friend are blatant errors. A correct use of it is "I don't get into
town much anymore".
|
I agree the first two should be "any more", but I can't see anything
wrong the last one. One thing I found odd about Tony's post: all the
examples were of "not... anymore", which is normal and not part of the
discussion.
--
Rob Bannister |
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