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TakenEvent
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: as long as |
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According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since") has been around since the fifteenth century.
Although I've been using it for as long as I can remember, I've never
realized what a strange expression it is. I cannot imagine trying to
explain it to an ESL student. How did it happen?
I've had other epiphanies wherein I've felt that a common word is actually
quite bizarre. Is there a term for that particular phenomenon? I can't at
this time remember any of the other words that have struck me like that. |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
<lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since")
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"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where that meaning is
used.
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Troy Steadman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:56 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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Jim Lawton wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since")
"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where that meaning is
used.
--
Jim
the polymoth
|
As long as you will be there...
Provided you will be there...
Since you will be there... |
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William
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:56 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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Jim Lawton wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since")
"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where that meaning is
used.
|
Perhaps something like "I've worked here as long as the company has
existed".
--
WH |
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Jim Lawton
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:16 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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On 6 Oct 2005 00:56:20 -0700, "Troy Steadman" <troysteadman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Lawton wrote:
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since")
"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where that meaning is
used.
--
Jim
the polymoth
As long as you will be there...
Provided you will be there...
Since you will be there...
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Oh, yes, I was fixated on the temporal meaning of "since".
--
Jim
the polymoth |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:52 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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TakenEvent <lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since") has been around since the fifteenth century.
Although I've been using it for as long as I can remember, I've never
realized what a strange expression it is.
|
You're right, the meaning is not intuitively obvious. Maybe someone with
an OED will quote us early uses that may happen to show how it evolved.
I suspect it's the "long" that has to do with time, such as "as long as
I've been here," but not directly.
| Quote: | I cannot imagine trying to
explain it to an ESL student. How did it happen?
|
Well, I think you should be very cautious about trying to explain any
historical etymology to an ESL student -- usually, their "Why?" reduces
merely to "How can I remember to say this and not that?"
| Quote: |
I've had other epiphanies wherein I've felt that a common word is actually
quite bizarre. Is there a term for that particular phenomenon? I can't at
this time remember any of the other words that have struck me like that.
|
It's sort of waking up from word-fatigue, isn't it? We've seen and heard
"as long as" so many times, we stop thinking about it and it just
becomes a pile of letters and sounds.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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dcw
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:25 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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In article <1h40gcv.1jlcjct1n0r9dsN%trio@euronet.nl>,
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | TakenEvent <lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since") has been around since the fifteenth century.
Although I've been using it for as long as I can remember, I've never
realized what a strange expression it is.
You're right, the meaning is not intuitively obvious. Maybe someone with
an OED will quote us early uses that may happen to show how it evolved.
I suspect it's the "long" that has to do with time, such as "as long as
I've been here," but not directly.
|
It's pretty close to the "long" in "I don't work there any longer", where
"any longer" means the same as "any more" (which is just as unintuitive).
David. |
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K. Edgcombe
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:33 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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| Quote: | In article <1h40gcv.1jlcjct1n0r9dsN%trio@euronet.nl>,
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
You're right, the meaning is not intuitively obvious. Maybe someone with
an OED will quote us early uses that may happen to show how it evolved.
I suspect it's the "long" that has to do with time, such as "as long as
I've been here," but not directly.
|
OED says:
b. In the comparative and superlative, or preceded by advs. of comparison (as,
how, so, thus, too, etc.), the adv. indicates amount of relative duration. (Cf.
LONG a. 8.) so (or as) long as: often nearly equivalent to .provided that., .if
only.. Also, long as, ellipt. for so (or as) long as.
It doesn't have any quotes for "as long as" that are not pretty directly
related to duration:
1846 BROWNING Lost Mistress v, I will hold your hand but as long as all may, Or
so very little longer
There is one for "so long as" not obviously relating to duration:
1887 L. CARROLL Game of Logic Pref., Is there any great harm in that, so long
as you get plenty of amusement?
Katy |
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John O'Flaherty
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:02 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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TakenEvent wrote:
| Quote: | According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since") has been around since the fifteenth century.
Although I've been using it for as long as I can remember, I've never
realized what a strange expression it is. I cannot imagine trying to
explain it to an ESL student. How did it happen?
I've had other epiphanies wherein I've felt that a common word is actually
quite bizarre. Is there a term for that particular phenomenon? I can't at
this time remember any of the other words that have struck me like that.
|
So, are you suddenly getting interference from the other meaning of
'since'? It sounds like an opposite of deja vu- an illusion of jamais
vu.
--
john |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:46 pm
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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Jim Lawton wrote:
| Quote: | On 6 Oct 2005 00:56:20 -0700, "Troy Steadman"
troysteadman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Jim Lawton wrote:
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long
as"
-- meaning "provided that"/ "since")
"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where that
meaning is used.
--
Jim
the polymoth
As long as you will be there...
Provided you will be there...
Since you will be there...
Oh, yes, I was fixated on the temporal meaning of "since".
|
Surely the examples show that "As long as" and "Provided that" are
roughly equivalent to "If", while "Since" implies certainty. So not
the same. Needless to say, perhaps, I don't think even the first two
are perfectly interchangeable, though their general sense is rather
similar.
--
Mike. |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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dcw <D.C.Wood@ukc.ac.uk> writes:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> writes:
TakenEvent <lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> writes:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" -- meaning
"provided that"/ "since") has been around since the fifteenth century.
Although I've been using it for as long as I can remember, I've never
realized what a strange expression it is.
You're right, the meaning is not intuitively obvious. Maybe someone with
an OED will quote us early uses that may happen to show how it evolved.
I suspect it's the "long" that has to do with time, such as "as long as
I've been here," but not directly.
It's pretty close to the "long" in "I don't work there any longer", where
"any longer" means the same as "any more" (which is just as unintuitive).
|
You're right, it comes from a temporal metaphor. But it's based on a
complex construction: something like "for as long a time as X remains the
case, for so long a time will Y continue". X may or may not be the case
yet, but when/if it transpires, then Y is the result for the duration of X.
In situations where only one event is being mentioned, it resolves into "if
X then Y" by ignoring the time factor. And in fact the time is usually
ignored; somebody saying "As long as she's there, I'll attend the party"
will not normally be understood as promising to leave when she does.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But do we know how to welcome into our mother tongue the distant echoes
that reverberate in the hollow centers of words? When reading words,
we see them and no longer hear them." -- Gaston Bachelard |
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TakenEvent
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:13 am
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ql2ofFfavm9U1@individual.net...
| Quote: |
Jim Lawton wrote:
On 6 Oct 2005 00:56:20 -0700, "Troy Steadman"
troysteadman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Jim Lawton wrote:
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long
as"
-- meaning "provided that"/ "since")
"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where that
meaning is used.
--
Jim
the polymoth
As long as you will be there...
Provided you will be there...
Since you will be there...
Oh, yes, I was fixated on the temporal meaning of "since".
Surely the examples show that "As long as" and "Provided that" are
roughly equivalent to "If", while "Since" implies certainty. So not
the same. Needless to say, perhaps, I don't think even the first two
are perfectly interchangeable, though their general sense is rather
similar.
|
Consider the circumstances in which the first example would be used. Say
your brother is going to the store, and you need some toilet paper. You
might say to him, "As long as you're [going to/will] be there, grab some
toilet paper for me, would ya?" That implies certainty. "Buy me TP, so
long as you go to the store," implies certainty of the relationship between
going to the store and the purchasing of TP, but does not imply any
certainty that your brother is, in fact, going to the store.
The same could be said of "provided that." If you said to your brother,
"Provided that you go to the store while you're out, please buy me some TP,"
your brother might skip the store completely, leaving you little choice but
to keep using the shower curtain. On the other hand, if you had advance
knowledge that your brother was already planning on going to the store and
you said to him, "Provided that you're going to the store, here's $15 for a
new shower curtain," the rephrasing and context would change for the better
the amount of certainty that soon you could stop using so damn much air
freshener in the bathroom.
Since you mentioned certainty, I think we'll have to analyze the emphasis of
the certainty that's in question. These expressions seem to set up an
explanation of a cause and effect relationship between two or more
variables. "Since" implies that the first event has taken place, is
currently taking place, or will certainly take place in the future. "As
long as" and "provided that" can be used to imply that while a cause and
effect relationship betwixt two or more variables certainly exists, the
cause itself is not certain to occur. The relationship between the
variables is just as certain with "since", "as long as", and "provided
that." The degree of certainty of the manifestation of the circumstances
wherein the cause and effect would come into play is less important to the
definition of these terms than is the fact that they describe a cause and
effect situation. Don't let the previous sentence put you to sleep. It
*certainly* made me get bored in a hurry. |
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TakenEvent
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:16 am
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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"John O'Flaherty" <quiasmox@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128614574.509893.136150@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
TakenEvent wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long as" --
meaning
"provided that"/ "since") has been around since the fifteenth century.
Although I've been using it for as long as I can remember, I've never
realized what a strange expression it is. I cannot imagine trying to
explain it to an ESL student. How did it happen?
I've had other epiphanies wherein I've felt that a common word is
actually
quite bizarre. Is there a term for that particular phenomenon? I can't
at
this time remember any of the other words that have struck me like that.
So, are you suddenly getting interference from the other meaning of
'since'? It sounds like an opposite of deja vu- an illusion of jamais
vu.
|
No, I'm trying to stick with the relevant shade of meaning for the duration
of this thread. "Since" probably deserves its own thread. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:17 am
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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TakenEvent wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ql2ofFfavm9U1@individual.net...
Jim Lawton wrote:
On 6 Oct 2005 00:56:20 -0700, "Troy Steadman"
troysteadman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Jim Lawton wrote:
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 23:39:58 -0400, "TakenEvent"
lightbulbsnickety@chartermi.net> wrote:
According to MWCD, the expression "as long as" (var. "so long
as"
-- meaning "provided that"/ "since")
"Since"? There's strange. I can't think of an example where
that
meaning is used.
--
Jim
the polymoth
As long as you will be there...
Provided you will be there...
Since you will be there...
Oh, yes, I was fixated on the temporal meaning of "since".
Surely the examples show that "As long as" and "Provided that" are
roughly equivalent to "If", while "Since" implies certainty. So
not
the same. Needless to say, perhaps, I don't think even the first
two
are perfectly interchangeable, though their general sense is
rather
similar.
Consider the circumstances in which the first example would be
used.
Say your brother is going to the store, and you need some toilet
paper. You might say to him, "As long as you're [going to/will] be
there, grab some toilet paper for me, would ya?" That implies
certainty. "Buy me TP, so long as you go to the store," implies
certainty of the relationship between going to the store and the
purchasing of TP, but does not imply any certainty that your
brother
is, in fact, going to the store.
The same could be said of "provided that." If you said to your
brother, "Provided that you go to the store while you're out,
please
buy me some TP," your brother might skip the store completely,
leaving you little choice but to keep using the shower curtain. On
the other hand, if you had advance knowledge that your brother was
already planning on going to the store and you said to him,
"Provided
that you're going to the store, here's $15 for a new shower
curtain,"
the rephrasing and context would change for the better the amount
of
certainty that soon you could stop using so damn much air freshener
in the bathroom.
Since you mentioned certainty, I think we'll have to analyze the
emphasis of the certainty that's in question. These expressions
seem
to set up an explanation of a cause and effect relationship between
two or more variables. "Since" implies that the first event has
taken place, is currently taking place, or will certainly take
place
in the future. "As long as" and "provided that" can be used to
imply
that while a cause and effect relationship betwixt two or more
variables certainly exists, the cause itself is not certain to
occur.
The relationship between the variables is just as certain with
"since", "as long as", and "provided that." The degree of
certainty
of the manifestation of the circumstances wherein the cause and
effect would come into play is less important to the definition of
these terms than is the fact that they describe a cause and effect
situation. Don't let the previous sentence put you to sleep. It
*certainly* made me get bored in a hurry.
|
I think you and I use "as long as" and provided that" rather
differently. I don't think I could use them for a certainty.
--
Mike. |
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TakenEvent
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:51 am
Post subject: Re: as long as |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3qliklFfl8n3U1@individual.net...
| Quote: | I think you and I use "as long as" and provided that" rather
differently. I don't think I could use them for a certainty.
|
Okay. |
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