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Michèle°
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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PR avait prétendu :
| Quote: | "Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
That's interesting! I've never heard that. It's odd, because there are
spots in modern French where "ne" is used without "pas," and the meaning is
not negative. For example, "J'ai peur qu'il ne soit là" means "I'm afraid
he's there," whereas "Jai peur qu'il ne soit _pas_ là" would be "I'm afraid
he's _not_ there."
Also, in informal conversations the "ne" is often dropped, leaving
fragments like "je sais pas."
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh" sound
becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing "chais pas" in
chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a French forum and was
reprimanded by the moderator! 
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"chais pas" is not correct, only young people use this term and only in
forum (to make the others smile)(or smiling) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:24 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Michèle° wrote:
| Quote: | PR avait prétendu :
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
[...]
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh"
sound becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing "chais
pas" in chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a
French
forum and was reprimanded by the moderator! :)
"chais pas" is not correct, only young people use this term and
only
in forum (to make the others smile)(or smiling)
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Mais, enfin, pratiquement tout le monde le _dit_.
--
Mike. |
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Michèle°
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Mike Lyle avait énoncé :
| Quote: | Michèle° wrote:
PR avait prétendu :
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
[...]
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh"
sound becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing "chais
pas" in chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a French
forum and was reprimanded by the moderator! :)
"chais pas" is not correct, only young people use this term and only
in forum (to make the others smile)(or smiling)
Mais, enfin, pratiquement tout le monde le _dit_.
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Non. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Michèle° wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle avait énoncé :
Michèle° wrote:
PR avait prétendu :
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
[...]
And the "je" of "Je sais pas" can merge with the verb, the "zh"
sound becoming "sh," so that the result becomes "Chais pas."
Yes, in spoken speech only. You'll only find people writing
"chais
pas" in chatrooms... I wrote some things like that once in a
French
forum and was reprimanded by the moderator! :)
"chais pas" is not correct, only young people use this term and
only
in forum (to make the others smile)(or smiling)
Mais, enfin, pratiquement tout le monde le _dit_.
Non.
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I bow to your superior knowledge; but I've heard it an awful lot.
--
Mike. |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Chris Waigl wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Bannister wrote:
What is interesting is that in the literary language, not so long ago,
the "pas" was dropped with certain verbs - from memory, I think "je ne
sais" was one of them. How things have changed.
They haven't, entirely. In the formal register and in much written
language, including published fiction, _savoir_, _pouvoir_, _cesser_,
_oser_ (and maybe some others) only take a preceding _ne_ for the simple
negation.
Even in spoken French this still happens, though there are fine
gradations of formality. No-one would be surprised at hearing "Je ne
sais quoi dire" ("I don't know what to say"), but if you ask a friend
for help with your maths homework saying "Je ne sais resoudre cette
équation", it may be taken as a mark of stuffiness or condescension.
Less so than, say, employing the subjunctive of the imperfect in speech
(a big no-no unless you're among people who know your idiosyncrasies).
It's much more likely for a child to say "Je sais pas resoudre cette
équation".
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It seems there are a number of stuffy French people. I worked with one
here in Australia who regularly used the passé historique in speech.
Others remember their grand- or great grandparents using it in letters.
I confess to a quirky liking for the past subjunctive as a replacement
for past conditional, so long as it's not one of those forms with all
the SSs.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Chris Waigl
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:07 am
Post subject: Re: Subject-Optional Languages |
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Mike Lyle wrote [about "Chais pas"]:
| Quote: | Michèle° wrote:
Mike Lyle avait énoncé :
Mais, enfin, pratiquement tout le monde le _dit_.
Non.
I bow to your superior knowledge; but I've heard it an awful lot.
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This group should be familiar with old-fogeydom. Now just assume this
works the same in French as it does in English.
"Chais pas" is a bit like "Dunno": Teachers would avoid saying it in
front of their pupils, but might in the staff room, and some people
would bite off their tongues before they said something so "lazy".
Chris Waigl
who does say "chais pas", but usually when being ironically self-deprecating |
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