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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | "Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:4hevj1lhocgvtamk0e8eat4kjmulhga6vg@4ax.com...
On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 12:46:02 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:
"Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote in message
news:3q6anoFd271cU2@individual.net...
John Hall wrote:
In article
1128109774.587001.324610@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, meeso
maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> writes:
I'd really appreicate it if someone could tell me what is the one
english word to describe the agricultural land owned by the
church, and surrounding it, in medieval Europe. However, I do
not mean the "churchyard", for the other land I am talking about
was used for agriculture and was considerably vast.
It could be "glebe", which the Concise Oxford Dictionary
describes as: "A piece of land serving as part of a clergyman's
benefice and providing
income."
I was going to suggest the same word, but I remembered it was a
relatively
small portion of land to support the clergyman. Interestingly, it
is cognate with Russian "hleb" (bread) and possibly with "life".
Its extent may vary. In the parish where I was brought up, the
glebe land was not all in one patch. My family rented one bit
(about 2 acres) which was
nowhere near the church. At least, I suppose it was rented; my
mother (who did the books) referred to our payment as "tithes".
Tithes were a rather different concept, weren't they? Farmers, even
if not on church-owned land, would have to pay a tithe (i.e a tenth)
of their produce to the local church. The glebe land was actually
held by the incumbent to farm or rent out for his income.
My vague memories are of what my mother told me when I was very
young, and I expect I have run together what she paid as tithes and
what as glebe rent. "Queen Anne's Bounty" somewhere came into it as
well . . . This would have been in the mid-1940s, I suppose.
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Queen Anne's Bounty was merged with the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to form
the Church Commissioners (in 1948). Yes, latterly they managed the receipt
of tithes.
--
John Briggs
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Graeme Thomas wrote:
| Quote: | In article <Xns96E3A4E94F922whhvans@62.253.170.163>, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
That's my point, though: the difference between a rector and a vicar
relates to the entitlement to income from the tithes and (where
applicable) the glebe lands.
I'm getting a bit confused by all these terms whizzing about, and I
don't find my dictionaries of much help. May I take a moment to
clarify what I think are the correct terms? I believe that I speak
only now of old usage, with all these rights and privileges gradually
dropping out of use from the 20s, finally being stopped in 1986.
I'll start with a church. This may have land associated with it (the
"glebe"). Someone (the "rector") is entitled to the income from the
glebe and to the tithes from surrounding landowners. That income is
known as the "benefice" or "living".
Someone has the right to appoint the rector. That right is
"advowson". That right is often held as part of the local manor.
The church needs a clergyman to look after the spiritual wellbeing of
the congregation. The rector can do that himself, or he can appoint a
deputy (the "vicar") to do it for him. (Or perhaps it's the holder of
the advowson who decides whether to appoint a working rector or a
vicar.) The vicar normally only gets paid (his "stipend") for the
job, but might, in certain churches, get part of the tithes.
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Not exactly. Although vicar normally means "deputy", in this context it
only applies when a vicarage has been formally instituted (endowed with the
lesser tithes), because the "rector" was an ecclesiastical corporation,
rather than an individual. An individual rector would appoint a "curate" to
act for him.
--
John Briggs |
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Graeme Thomas
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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In article <ujV%e.11822$DO.5969@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> writes
| Quote: | Not exactly. Although vicar normally means "deputy", in this context it
only applies when a vicarage has been formally instituted (endowed with the
lesser tithes), because the "rector" was an ecclesiastical corporation,
rather than an individual. An individual rector would appoint a "curate" to
act for him.
|
OK. What are "lesser tithes", and how do they compare with the other
sort. (I vaguely recall that they are "great tithes".)
I assume that the reason that the Rector was an ecclesiatical
corporation was normally that the holder of the advowson was the
corporation, and appointed themselves (itself?) rector.
--
Graeme Thomas
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:06 am
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Graeme Thomas wrote:
| Quote: | In article <ujV%e.11822$DO.5969@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> writes
Not exactly. Although vicar normally means "deputy", in this
context it only applies when a vicarage has been formally instituted
(endowed with the lesser tithes), because the "rector" was an
ecclesiastical corporation, rather than an individual. An
individual rector would appoint a "curate" to act for him.
OK. What are "lesser tithes", and how do they compare with the other
sort.
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They are everything else :-)
| Quote: | (I vaguely recall that they are "great tithes".)
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Predial tithes: tithes of corn, hay, and wood.
| Quote: | I assume that the reason that the Rector was an ecclesiatical
corporation was normally that the holder of the advowson was the
corporation, and appointed themselves (itself?) rector.
|
Well, in effect - although it had to be done formally. If you wished to
turn your parish church into a collegiate foundation (e.g. as a chantry for
your family), you first had to endow the college with the advowson - thus
giving away something (the rectory) that you didn't own! (An Inquisition of
Mortmain would be necessary, I believe.) You would probably also endow it
with your lesser and more far-flung manors.
--
John Briggs |
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Tony Mountifield
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:04 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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In article <U_N0f.10020$4Q.299@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Nick Wagg wrote:
"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much for
the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and at the
same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious house.
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from monasteries?
|
Abbey? Convent?
Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:16 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much for the
word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and at the
same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
|
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious house. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | "meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much for
the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and at the
same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious house.
|
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from monasteries?
--
John Briggs |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:02 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On 05 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
| Quote: | Nick Wagg wrote:
"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much
for the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and
at the same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious
house.
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from
monasteries?
|
Hospitals and secular colleges are included in "Medieval Religious
Houses, England and Wales", by Knowles and Hadcock.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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|
Tony Mountifield wrote:
| Quote: | In article <U_N0f.10020$4Q.299@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Nick Wagg wrote:
"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much for
the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and at
the same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious house.
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from monasteries?
Abbey? Convent?
|
Monasteries are either abbeys or priories. Strictly speaking, a monastery
is for monks - but it is absurd not to call a house of regular canons a
monastery, and it is awfully convenient to include nunneries as well - or at
least have an implied "(and nunneries)" every time you say "monasteries".
"Convent" illustrates the problem - it ought to refer to any type of
conventual house, rather than just a nunnery.
--
John Briggs |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | "meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much
for
the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and at
the
same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious
house. |
A quick trip to the (always fascinating, if rather out-dated and
often heavy-reading) online Catholic Encyclopedia shows that, as one
might have expected, "glebe" isn't peculiar to the Anglican
Communion. See:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06582a.htm
--
Mike. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | On 05 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
Nick Wagg wrote:
"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very much
for the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and
at the same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious
house.
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from
monasteries?
Hospitals and secular colleges are included in "Medieval Religious
Houses, England and Wales", by Knowles and Hadcock.
|
And, in practice, how many of them had granges? I would accept hospitals,
but I wouldn't really accept secular colleges. They ought to include
secular cathedrals, whose canons had no common life.
--
John Briggs |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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John Briggs wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Monasteries are either abbeys or priories. Strictly speaking, a
monastery is for monks - but it is absurd not to call a house of
regular canons a monastery, and it is awfully convenient to include
nunneries as well - or at least have an implied "(and nunneries)"
every time you say "monasteries". "Convent" illustrates the
problem -
it ought to refer to any type of conventual house, rather than just
a
nunnery.
|
I believe one Order of nuns -- Benedictine? -- uses the term
"monastery". I certainly heard one member saying so on Radio 4; but I
don't know how official her statement was.
--
Mike. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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|
On 05 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
| Quote: | Tony Mountifield wrote:
In article <U_N0f.10020$4Q.299@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Nick Wagg wrote:
"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very
much for the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and
at the same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious
house.
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from
monasteries?
Abbey? Convent?
Monasteries are either abbeys or priories. Strictly speaking, a
monastery is for monks - but it is absurd not to call a house of
regular canons a monastery, and it is awfully convenient to
include nunneries as well - or at least have an implied "(and
nunneries)" every time you say "monasteries". "Convent"
illustrates the problem - it ought to refer to any type of
conventual house, rather than just a nunnery.
|
I'd agree with that, but the Knights Templars and Hospitallers,
separately-established hospitals, and secular colleges all appear to be
included within the category of "religious houses". The contents list
from Knowles and Hadcock lists:
Benedictine monks, and alien cells
Benedictine monks and nuns of the order of Fontevrault
Cluniac Houses and dependencies
Houses of the Order of Tiron: the Celestines
Grandmontines
Cistercian Abbeys
Cistercian dependencies
Carthusians
Augustinian Canons, and alien cells
Premonstratensian Canons
Gilertine priories for Canons and Nuns
Houses of Gilbertine Canons
Priests and Brothers of regular orders attached to nunneries
Abbey of Bridgettines
Houses of Bonshommes
Trinitarians
Mendicant Friars (8 types, including Dominicans, Franciscans, etc.)
Houses of Nuns (8 types)
Houses of the Knights Templars
Knights Hospitallers
Hospitals
Secular Colleges
Academic Secular Colleges in England
Other Secular Establishments
(Early Monasteries, and houses of uncertain order or foundation)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On 05 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 05 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
Nick Wagg wrote:
"meeso" <maysaraomar@yahoo.com.hk> wrote in message
news:1128114052.517855.165810@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello there, John Briggs and John Hall, and Thank you very
much for the word.
But "Glebe" seems to be particular to an "English" church, and
at the same time, not particular to the agrarian land.
A "grange" was a farm owned by a monastery or other religious
house.
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from
monasteries?
Hospitals and secular colleges are included in "Medieval
Religious Houses, England and Wales", by Knowles and Hadcock.
And, in practice, how many of them had granges? I would accept
hospitals, but I wouldn't really accept secular colleges.
|
Hmmm.... St George's at Windsor Castle -- which was established as and
remains decidedly a secular college -- strikes me as a qualifying as a
"religious house".
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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Paul D Clark
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: medieval church's agricultural land? |
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:41:33 GMT, John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 05 Oct 2005, John Briggs wrote
What religious houses (in practice) are there apart from
monasteries?
Hospitals and secular colleges are included in "Medieval Religious
Houses, England and Wales", by Knowles and Hadcock.
And, in practice, how many of them had granges? I would accept hospitals,
but I wouldn't really accept secular colleges. They ought to include
secular cathedrals, whose canons had no common life.
|
Loose canons?
--
Paul Clark you.missed -> umist to reply |
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