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Curious J.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:32 pm
Post subject: Uses of "that" |
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Hello,
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
Thanks,
Curious J.
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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"Curious J." <user@who.hates.spammers.com> wrote in message
news:dhgfr5$s9m$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
| Quote: | Hello,
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
|
Not all okay - in fact, all wrong. They could be made okay if you added a
preposition such as "in", "on" or "at" after "live", or if the word "that"
were replaced by "where".
The mistake is the same as if you said "the house we lived" instead of "the
house we lived in" or "the house where we lived". You don't live a place:
you live in a place, or at a place. You don't live a street: you live on a
street (or, if you're British, "in a street").
Alan Jones |
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John O'Flaherty
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | "Curious J." <user@who.hates.spammers.com> wrote in message
news:dhgfr5$s9m$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
Hello,
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
Not all okay - in fact, all wrong. They could be made okay if you added a
preposition such as "in", "on" or "at" after "live", or if the word "that"
were replaced by "where".
The mistake is the same as if you said "the house we lived" instead of "the
house we lived in" or "the house where we lived". You don't live a place:
you live in a place, or at a place. You don't live a street: you live on a
street (or, if you're British, "in a street").
|
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok. You're right about
'house'. The variability of the need for the preposition depending on
the class of place (house, street, place) was discussed here a few
months ago, I think.
--
john
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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John O'Flaherty <quiasmox@yahoo.com> writes:
| Quote: | Alan Jones writes:
"Curious J." <user@who.hates.spammers.com> writes
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
Not all okay - in fact, all wrong. They could be made okay if you added a
preposition such as "in", "on" or "at" after "live", or if the word "that"
were replaced by "where".
The mistake is the same as if you said "the house we lived" instead of "the
house we lived in" or "the house where we lived". You don't live a place:
you live in a place, or at a place. You don't live a street: you live on a
street (or, if you're British, "in a street").
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok. You're right about
'house'. The variability of the need for the preposition depending on
the class of place (house, street, place) was discussed here a few
months ago, I think.
|
Yeah, I agree. (1) is ok, as is. The rest aren't. They'd need prepositions.
Of course, all of them are fine with 'where', instead of 'that'
without prepositions. 'That' doesn't substitute freely for adverbial
relatives; since these often require prepositions or other markers to
denote details of the adverbial construction, omitting the adverbial
relative marker (where, when, why, etc.) and substituting 'that' is
something that gets a little tricky, since you lose information that
way, as well as by omitting prepositions. So it's not the safest
thing to do, and rules that work fine with 'which' and 'who' often
bomb with other relative markers..
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points" -Terry Pratchett |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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John Lawler wrote:
| Quote: | John O'Flaherty writes:
Alan Jones writes:
"Curious J." writes
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try
to explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
Not all okay - in fact, all wrong. They could be made okay if you
added a preposition such as "in", "on" or "at" after "live", or if
the word "that" were replaced by "where".
The mistake is the same as if you said "the house we lived" instead
of "the house we lived in" or "the house where we lived". You don't
live a place: you live in a place, or at a place. You don't live a
street: you live on a street (or, if you're British, "in a street").
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok. You're right
about 'house'. The variability of the need for the preposition
depending on the class of place (house, street, place) was discussed
here a few months ago, I think.
Yeah, I agree. (1) is ok, as is.
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Really? You can live a place? I can't.
| Quote: | The rest aren't. They'd need prepositions.
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Yup.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:m0V_e.341$yb2.274@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: | John O'Flaherty <quiasmox@yahoo.com> writes:
Alan Jones writes:
"Curious J." <user@who.hates.spammers.com> writes
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
Not all okay - in fact, all wrong. They could be made okay if you added
a
preposition such as "in", "on" or "at" after "live", or if the word
"that"
were replaced by "where".
The mistake is the same as if you said "the house we lived" instead of
"the
house we lived in" or "the house where we lived". You don't live a
place:
you live in a place, or at a place. You don't live a street: you live on
a
street (or, if you're British, "in a street").
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok. You're right about
'house'. The variability of the need for the preposition depending on
the class of place (house, street, place) was discussed here a few
months ago, I think.
Yeah, I agree. (1) is ok, as is. The rest aren't. They'd need
prepositions.
|
I don't think (1) is any more OK in BrE than the rest. They might all be
heard in casual speech, I suppose, if that makes them OK.
Alan Jones |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:55 am
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | "John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:m0V_e.341$yb2.274@news.itd.umich.edu...
John O'Flaherty <quiasmox@yahoo.com> writes:
Alan Jones writes:
"Curious J." <user@who.hates.spammers.com> writes
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you
try to explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
Not all okay - in fact, all wrong. They could be made okay if
you
added a
preposition such as "in", "on" or "at" after "live", or if the
word
"that"
were replaced by "where".
The mistake is the same as if you said "the house we lived"
instead of "the
house we lived in" or "the house where we lived". You don't live
a
place:
you live in a place, or at a place. You don't live a street: you
live on a
street (or, if you're British, "in a street").
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok. You're right
about 'house'. The variability of the need for the preposition
depending on the class of place (house, street, place) was
discussed here a few months ago, I think.
Yeah, I agree. (1) is ok, as is. The rest aren't. They'd need
prepositions.
I don't think (1) is any more OK in BrE than the rest. They might
all
be heard in casual speech, I suppose, if that makes them OK.
|
Though "location" isn't ordinary BrEtcE: in ordinary use for "place"
it has a ring of over-formality or American orotundity. It's gaining
ground, though.
--
Mike. |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:47 am
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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We are asked about:
| Quote: | 1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
|
Alan Jones writes:
John O'Flaherty writes:
| Quote: | I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok.
|
John Lawler wrote:
| Quote: | Yeah, I agree. (1) is ok, as is.
|
And now "Skitt" writes:
| Quote: | Really? You can live a place? I can't.
|
I agree with the Johns. You can't live a place, but "that" in
(1) seems to have the force of "where", making it acceptable.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "We are full of digital chain letters and
msb@vex.net | warnings about marmalade." --Matt Ridley |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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In article news:<11joo73jh1jvefc@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Brader wrote:
| Quote: | I agree with the Johns. You can't live a place, but "that" in
(1) seems to have the force of "where", making it acceptable.
|
Hmm.
Note, though, that John O says:
| Quote: | I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok.
|
which is NOT the same as the OP wrote:
| Quote: | 1. Remember the place that we used to live?
^^^^ |
(view in a fixed-pitch font to get the ^s in the right place).
So John L's
| Quote: | Yeah, I agree. (1) is ok, as is.
|
is confusing - it seems John L hadn't noticed that John O was not directly
quoting the OP.
I'd say that in "remember the place we used to live?" we read an implicit
"where" and it seems OK, but in "remember the place that we used to live?"
there is an explicit "that" which makes it wrong.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Daniel James writes:
| Quote: | Hmm.
Note, though, that John O says:
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok.
which is NOT the same as the OP wrote:
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
^^^^
|
True, but the "that" is implicit.
| Quote: | I'd say that in "remember the place we used to live?" we read an implicit
"where" and it seems OK, but in "remember the place that we used to live?"
there is an explicit "that" which makes it wrong.
|
I disagree. It's okay either way.
--
Mark Brader "Inventions reached their limit long ago,
Toronto and I see no hope for further development."
msb@vex.net -- Julius Frontinus, 1st century A.D. |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> writes:
| Quote: | Daniel James writes:
Note, though, that John O says:
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok.
which is NOT the same as the OP wrote:
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
True, but the "that" is implicit.
I'd say that in "remember the place we used to live?" we read an implicit
"where" and it seems OK, but in "remember the place that we used to live?"
there is an explicit "that" which makes it wrong.
I disagree. It's okay either way.
|
And you're correct. But it's also true that I didn't notice that
an intermediate poster had deleted the 'that'.
And the "that" isn't 'implicit'.
This is a relative clause, not a complement like
I think (that) he is going to be late.
where the "that" (which may be a different "that", depending on
which syntactic church you go to, BTW) *is* implicit, even if you
delete it.
Here's the Cliff's on relative clauses.
In a relative clause, one has the choice of
o a true relative pronoun, including
| Quote: | "which" and "who" in practically any case
the man who came to dinner the boat which he bought
"where" and "when" in more limited cases
the place where we lived the day when he arrived
"why" in very limited cases (mostly modifying "reason")
the reason why he did it |
*or*
o "that", substituting for
| Quote: | "which" or "who" in practically any case
the man that came to dinner the boat that he bought
"where" and "when" in some cases (this is our current context)
the place that we lived the day that he arrived
"why" in any context where "why" works
the reason that he did it |
*or*
o nothing, which is possible whenever the relative or "that"
is not the subject of the relative clause; i.e, subject
relative pronouns can't be deleted.
*the man came to dinner the boat he bought
the place we lived the day he arrived
the reason he did it
So it's not so obvious exactly what's 'implicit' when the
relative appears without a relative pronoun.
-John Lawler * Linguistics @ umich.edu & wwu.edu
-------------------------------------------------
"The great thing about human language is that it
prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
-- Lewis Thomas |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Curious J. wrote:
| Quote: | Hello,
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
|
They are all wrong because they are questions worded as orders.
The best way is: "Remember you the street we lived on?", although
dashed unusual (I have a pet dislike for "do" as "What do I do?").
~Iain |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: | Curious J. wrote:
Hello,
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try
to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
They are all wrong because they are questions worded as orders.
The best way is: "Remember you the street we lived on?", although
dashed unusual (I have a pet dislike for "do" as "What do I do?").
~Iain
|
Iain, where are you getting all these interesting ideas from?
--
Mike. |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
Curious J. wrote:
Hello,
Are the following sentences all okay to you? If not, would you try
to
explain why?
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
2. Remember the street that we used to live?
3. Remember the location that we used to live?
4. Remember the house that we used to live?
They are all wrong because they are questions worded as orders.
The best way is: "Remember you the street we lived on?", although
dashed unusual (I have a pet dislike for "do" as "What do I do?").
~Iain
Iain, where are you getting all these interesting ideas from?
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Drop Dead Fred tells me.
~Iain |
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Curious J.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:19 am
Post subject: Re: Uses of "that" |
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To summarize the follow-ups to my OP, it seems to me that most folks here
(of course, not all) agree that at least the sentence (1) is okay, while
(4) is definitely not. But, nobody has tried to explain why? Anybody?
(1) Remember the place that we used to live?
(2) Remember the street that we used to live?
(3) Remember the location that we used to live?
(4) Remember the house that we used to live?
Thanks,
Curious J.
| Quote: | Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> writes:
Daniel James writes:
Note, though, that John O says:
I think 'remember the place we used to live?' is ok.
which is NOT the same as the OP wrote:
1. Remember the place that we used to live?
True, but the "that" is implicit.
I'd say that in "remember the place we used to live?" we read an
implicit "where" and it seems OK, but in "remember the place that we
used to live?" there is an explicit "that" which makes it wrong.
I disagree. It's okay either way.
And you're correct. But it's also true that I didn't notice that an
intermediate poster had deleted the 'that'.
And the "that" isn't 'implicit'. This is a relative clause, not a
complement like
I think (that) he is going to be late.
where the "that" (which may be a different "that", depending on which
syntactic church you go to, BTW) *is* implicit, even if you delete it.
Here's the Cliff's on relative clauses. In a relative clause, one has
the choice of
o a true relative pronoun, including
"which" and "who" in practically any case
the man who came to dinner the boat which he bought
"where" and "when" in more limited cases
the place where we lived the day when he arrived
"why" in very limited cases (mostly modifying "reason")
the reason why he did it
*or*
o "that", substituting for
"which" or "who" in practically any case
the man that came to dinner the boat that he bought
"where" and "when" in some cases (this is our current context)
the place that we lived the day that he arrived
"why" in any context where "why" works
the reason that he did it
*or*
o nothing, which is possible whenever the relative or "that"
is not the subject of the relative clause; i.e, subject
relative pronouns can't be deleted.
*the man came to dinner the boat he bought
the place we lived the day he arrived
the reason he did it
So it's not so obvious exactly what's 'implicit' when the relative
appears without a relative pronoun.
-John Lawler * Linguistics @ umich.edu & wwu.edu
-------------------------------------------------
"The great thing about human language is that it
prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
-- Lewis Thomas |
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