| Author |
Message |
Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:46 pm
Post subject: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
~Iain
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:54 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: | There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
|
Addition: He's best described as talking like a British policeman in
that scene.
~Iain |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:48 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127904409.795945.66870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_". . . .
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally?
|
The missing link here seems to be the assumption
that an American period film (set in France 350 years
ago) would be scripted and acted in contemporary
American speech. The assumption might be justified
in this case, but is not generally true: most Hollywood
movies about Robin Hood or ancient Rome avoid
contemporary speech, not to mention contemporary slang.
(The OP valuably noted that nowadays we cannot be sure
whether any particular 5 words of dialogue were written
in the script or interpolated by an actor.)
NB re. social attitudes: in a monarchy, the king cannot
help condescending to every other character in the
story, since he is ipso facto top dog i.e. has no equals.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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|
Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127904409.795945.66870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_". . . .
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally?
The missing link here seems to be the assumption
that an American period film (set in France 350 years
ago) would be scripted and acted in contemporary
American speech. The assumption might be justified
in this case, but is not generally true: most Hollywood
movies about Robin Hood or ancient Rome avoid
contemporary speech, not to mention contemporary slang.
(The OP valuably noted that nowadays we cannot be sure
whether any particular 5 words of dialogue were written
in the script or interpolated by an actor.)
NB re. social attitudes: in a monarchy, the king cannot
help condescending to every other character in the
story, since he is ipso facto top dog i.e. has no equals.
|
"Lad" is contemporary and commonplace, but only in Britain. That's the
issue. It's like Maximus in Gladiator calling someone a "plonker".
One generally expects an American period film set in a foreign country
to be spoken in "mimimum American" -- Standard enough to understand but
not so contemporary and localised as to be a red herring. It would not
include words like "okay" but it would very much be modern Standard
American English. Gladiator, for example, could be comfortably
translated into Latin thanks to its classic word choice. However, the
hero's servant in Gladiator was distracting with his Scottish
accent(unless he was a Caledonian slave). That's why British accents
were used by hobbits in Lord of the Rings. It sells the whole idea of
them being from the same community, but then fails in that task by
using a range of regional accents.
The wierdness here is that "lad" breaks all these rules. It is a
foreign(British) colloquey, which is unlikely to feature in an American
period film set in France, surely?
Calling someone "my lad" in Britain is like calling them "sonny" in the
U.S.A. Do most Americans recognise that? Why is one better than the
other?
~Iain |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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|
On 28 Sep 2005 03:46:49 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
"Lad" isn't frequently used in the US, and when it is, it is usually |
reserved for self-describing a young man: "When I was a lad..."
It's not common to use it to mean "friend" as in "out with the lads",
so the condescending use would also be uncommon. If we don't use it
to mean "friend", we wouldn't use it sarcastically to mean "not my
friend".
My grandfather used to call me "Laddy-me-buck", but it was used as a
mild warning to settle down. "Watch yourself, laddy-me-buck, you'll
get in trouble with that attitude." I suppose it was derivative of
the UK/Irish "laddishness".
There's some usage in the Irish-American enclaves to mean a person
associated with the IRA, but this is an extremely specialized usage
here: "The lads are causing trouble again".
The oddness of DeCaprio's line, to me, is the substitution of "my" for
"me". It would probably pass by me unnoticed had he said "You're not
going anywhere, me lad." Not because "me lad" is an Americanism, but
because the term is natural.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:43 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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Iain wrote:
| Quote: | There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the
evil king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
|
I note the screenplay was written by the same guy who wrote "Braveheart"
so, despite being born in Tennessee, he may be a Britophile.
Quick search of IMDb shows "my lad" has appeared in Hollywood before:
Disney's "Alice in Wonderland" in 1951 had the Dodo say "Bill, my lad.
Have you ever been down a chimney?" And Captain (aka Dr) Blood said
"Nutall, my lad, just one other little thing." While the Man who came to
Dinner opined "Banjo, my lad, you're wonderful."
So not just the word itself but the actual expression has graced USAn
films for some years. Not to mention the fact that pretty much the
entire Western world and certainly the show business knows "I'll tell
you what's wrong with it my lad..."
Groundskeeper Willie uses "lad" and it appears in Sponge Bob Square
Pants. Julie Jordan sang "So when he wants your kisses/You will give
them to the lad/" and Fantasia's narrator describes the Sorcerer's
Apprentice as "a bright young lad".
Not to mention Moby Dick, Mean Machine and LA Confidential. And every
movie where Hollywood required one or more characters to sound, to
American ears, quintessentially Irish or Scottish. (Step forward
Brigadoon and take a bow).
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
|
|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On 28 Sep 2005 03:46:49 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com
wrote:
There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
"Lad" isn't frequently used in the US, and when it is, it is usually
reserved for self-describing a young man: "When I was a lad..."
It's not common to use it to mean "friend" as in "out with the lads",
so the condescending use would also be uncommon. If we don't use it
to mean "friend", we wouldn't use it sarcastically to mean "not my
friend".
My grandfather used to call me "Laddy-me-buck", but it was used as a
mild warning to settle down. "Watch yourself, laddy-me-buck, you'll
get in trouble with that attitude." I suppose it was derivative of
the UK/Irish "laddishness".
There's some usage in the Irish-American enclaves to mean a person
associated with the IRA, but this is an extremely specialized usage
here: "The lads are causing trouble again".
The oddness of DeCaprio's line, to me, is the substitution of "my" for
"me".
|
Did he really? I don't remember.
| Quote: | It would probably pass by me unnoticed had he said "You're not
going anywhere, me lad." Not because "me lad" is an Americanism, but
because the term is natural.
|
I thought he said "my lad", in his own California accent. Remember he
plays a clean-cut, well-spoken French king, so "me lad" would be wierd
for him.
"My lad" is normal here in Scotland if a teacher is threatening a pupil
somehow. The line was like "And as for you, my lad, your punishment
will be this...". The word is appropriate given the dramatic events,
but stands out against the background of timeless Standard American.
"Lad" never means friend -- It always just means a common young man or
boy -- which is how the king sees his brother.
~Iain |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:19 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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|
On 28 Sep 2005 07:05:05 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Lad" never means friend -- It always just means a common young man or
boy -- which is how the king sees his brother.
|
I wonder about this. If a person says "I'm going out with the lads",
isn't that person going out with his friends? Even if the friends are
common, they are still his friends and the meaning of his statement is
that he is going out with his chosen companions.
In the statement "All the lads were in the pub", the meaning could be
that the pub was full of yobbos or that all of the speaker's friends
were in the pub. No?
It would seem to me that the distinction between "lads" as common
young men and "lads" as a group of friends would be in the perspective
of the person using the term. To you they are common, but to him they
are friends.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On 28 Sep 2005 07:05:05 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com
wrote:
"Lad" never means friend -- It always just means a common young man or
boy -- which is how the king sees his brother.
I wonder about this. If a person says "I'm going out with the lads",
isn't that person going out with his friends? Even if the friends are
common, they are still his friends and the meaning of his statement is
that he is going out with his chosen companions.
|
Yes, but that they are friends is circumstancial. They are lads whether
they are friends.
"That lad's an arsehole" is also normal.
"Lad" is mainly paternal. You mainly only ever call someone "my lad" if
you want to sound fatherly, or like a king talking to a silly wee boy,
like in TMITIM.
| Quote: | In the statement "All the lads were in the pub", the meaning could be
that the pub was full of yobbos or that all of the speaker's friends
were in the pub. No?
|
The friendship isn't indicated by "lad"; It's indicated by "the" as in
"all the gang" -- "gang" isn't friendly, but the fact that they need no
introductions suggests aquaintance.
| Quote: | It would seem to me that the distinction between "lads" as common
young men and "lads" as a group of friends would be in the perspective
of the person using the term. To you they are common, but to him they
are friends.
|
"Lad" is no more friendly than "Fellow". "Out with the lads" is like
"Out with the boys" -- "out with" is the thing that points toward
friendship.
~Iain |
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Iain
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:11 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
|
|
John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the
evil king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
I note the screenplay was written by the same guy who wrote "Braveheart"
so, despite being born in Tennessee, he may be a Britophile.
Quick search of IMDb shows "my lad" has appeared in Hollywood before:
Disney's "Alice in Wonderland" in 1951 had the Dodo say "Bill, my lad.
Have you ever been down a chimney?" And Captain (aka Dr) Blood said
"Nutall, my lad, just one other little thing." While the Man who came to
Dinner opined "Banjo, my lad, you're wonderful."
So not just the word itself but the actual expression has graced USAn
films for some years. Not to mention the fact that pretty much the
entire Western world and certainly the show business knows "I'll tell
you what's wrong with it my lad..."
Groundskeeper Willie uses "lad" and it appears in Sponge Bob Square
Pants. Julie Jordan sang "So when he wants your kisses/You will give
them to the lad/" and Fantasia's narrator describes the Sorcerer's
Apprentice as "a bright young lad".
Not to mention Moby Dick, Mean Machine and LA Confidential. And every
movie where Hollywood required one or more characters to sound, to
American ears, quintessentially Irish or Scottish. (Step forward
Brigadoon and take a bow).
|
That's just the thing -- It has a Scottish\Irish stigma -- none of
which DiCaprio would want in this particular scene, especially not in
his Californian accent whilst playing a French king.
~Iain |
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JPG
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:18 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
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|
On 28 Sep 2005 07:05:05 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Tony Cooper wrote:
On 28 Sep 2005 03:46:49 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com
wrote:
There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the evil
king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
"Lad" isn't frequently used in the US, and when it is, it is usually
reserved for self-describing a young man: "When I was a lad..."
It's not common to use it to mean "friend" as in "out with the lads",
so the condescending use would also be uncommon. If we don't use it
to mean "friend", we wouldn't use it sarcastically to mean "not my
friend".
My grandfather used to call me "Laddy-me-buck", but it was used as a
mild warning to settle down. "Watch yourself, laddy-me-buck, you'll
get in trouble with that attitude." I suppose it was derivative of
the UK/Irish "laddishness".
There's some usage in the Irish-American enclaves to mean a person
associated with the IRA, but this is an extremely specialized usage
here: "The lads are causing trouble again".
The oddness of DeCaprio's line, to me, is the substitution of "my" for
"me".
Did he really? I don't remember.
It would probably pass by me unnoticed had he said "You're not
going anywhere, me lad." Not because "me lad" is an Americanism, but
because the term is natural.
I thought he said "my lad", in his own California accent. Remember he
plays a clean-cut, well-spoken French king, so "me lad" would be wierd
for him.
"My lad" is normal here in Scotland if a teacher is threatening a pupil
somehow. The line was like "And as for you, my lad, your punishment
will be this...". The word is appropriate given the dramatic events,
but stands out against the background of timeless Standard American.
|
"My lad" used to be normal in England with the same admonishment meaning and
tone as the Scottish teacher. My mother often used to call me my lad when I was
a child, and it was nearly always after I had been naughty. Nowadays it has
shades of meaning from a circle of male friends to "common" men in general, as
at concerts by Madonna or Britney where (male) members of the audience would
often shout out "get your tits out for the lads".
JPG
| Quote: |
"Lad" never means friend -- It always just means a common young man or
boy -- which is how the king sees his brother.
~Iain |
|
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Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:27 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
|
|
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:43:04 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Iain wrote:
There is a scene in Man in the Iron Mask(1998 maybe?) in which the
evil king Louis(DiCaprio), upon thwarting his twin brother's(DiCaprio)
attempt to overthrow him, has him arrested(this scene is marked by a
nice bit where DiCaprio walks full circle around DiCaprio
interrogatingly), gets angry and says something to the effect of
"You're not going anywhere,_my lad_".
This is supposed to be a very mainstream film in Standard American
English, and there is no British theme anywhere in the film, nor do I
imagine the term would have appeared in the literature.
It was obviously supposed to be condescending, but are Americans
accustomed to using the word in this way naturally? I guess maybe it
was an actors's suggestion. DiCaprio worked with a few British
actors(Hugh Laurie, Jeremy Irons), and is quite accent aware, well
travelled, with European parents.
Do any Americans care to comment on their familiarity with the word?
I note the screenplay was written by the same guy who wrote "Braveheart"
so, despite being born in Tennessee, he may be a Britophile.
|
Pity. I'd assumed it must be a remake of a film starring Alan Ladd. I
thought "You're not going anywhere,_my Ladd_" had probably been a
director's instruction to him not to get off the box that he stood on
for close-ups. Oh well.
--
Phil C. |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
|
|
"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127920310.092534.122050@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | That's just the thing -- It has a Scottish\Irish stigma -- none of
which DiCaprio would want in this particular scene, especially not in
his Californian accent whilst playing a French king.
|
We probably want to stop short of disallowing "my lad" as
an exact equivalent of "mon gars."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
|
|
On 28 Sep 2005 08:06:21 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Tony Cooper wrote:
On 28 Sep 2005 07:05:05 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com
wrote:
"Lad" never means friend -- It always just means a common young man or
boy -- which is how the king sees his brother.
I wonder about this. If a person says "I'm going out with the lads",
isn't that person going out with his friends? Even if the friends are
common, they are still his friends and the meaning of his statement is
that he is going out with his chosen companions.
Yes, but that they are friends is circumstancial. They are lads whether
they are friends.
|
Wha? In that sentence, the fact that the friends are lads is
circumstantial. The primary meaning is that the person is going out
with friends. They are friends whether or not they are lads.
| Quote: |
"That lad's an arsehole" is also normal.
"Lad" is mainly paternal. You mainly only ever call someone "my lad" if
you want to sound fatherly, or like a king talking to a silly wee boy,
like in TMITIM.
In the statement "All the lads were in the pub", the meaning could be
that the pub was full of yobbos or that all of the speaker's friends
were in the pub. No?
The friendship isn't indicated by "lad"; It's indicated by "the" as in
"all the gang" -- "gang" isn't friendly, but the fact that they need no
introductions suggests aquaintance.
|
I'm still not with you. The "the" doesn't mean anything. You can
substitute "my" or "his" and the meaning remains the same as far as
all the person's friends being in the pub.
You've stated that "lads" never means friends. I say it can and
sometimes does. I can't say that it can and does in your personal
lexicon, but I think it does in the lexicon of many.
| Quote: | It would seem to me that the distinction between "lads" as common
young men and "lads" as a group of friends would be in the perspective
of the person using the term. To you they are common, but to him they
are friends.
"Lad" is no more friendly than "Fellow". "Out with the lads" is like
"Out with the boys" -- "out with" is the thing that points toward
friendship.
~Iain
|
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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| Back to top |
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Iain
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: "Lad" in Hollywood |
|
|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On 28 Sep 2005 08:06:21 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com
wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote:
On 28 Sep 2005 07:05:05 -0700, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com
wrote:
"Lad" never means friend -- It always just means a common young man or
boy -- which is how the king sees his brother.
I wonder about this. If a person says "I'm going out with the lads",
isn't that person going out with his friends? Even if the friends are
common, they are still his friends and the meaning of his statement is
that he is going out with his chosen companions.
Yes, but that they are friends is circumstancial. They are lads whether
they are friends.
Wha? In that sentence, the fact that the friends are lads is
circumstantial. The primary meaning is that the person is going out
with friends. They are friends whether or not they are lads.
"That lad's an arsehole" is also normal.
"Lad" is mainly paternal. You mainly only ever call someone "my lad" if
you want to sound fatherly, or like a king talking to a silly wee boy,
like in TMITIM.
In the statement "All the lads were in the pub", the meaning could be
that the pub was full of yobbos or that all of the speaker's friends
were in the pub. No?
The friendship isn't indicated by "lad"; It's indicated by "the" as in
"all the gang" -- "gang" isn't friendly, but the fact that they need no
introductions suggests aquaintance.
I'm still not with you. The "the" doesn't mean anything. You can
substitute "my" or "his" and the meaning remains the same as far as
all the person's friends being in the pub.
You've stated that "lads" never means friends. I say it can and
sometimes does. I can't say that it can and does in your personal
lexicon, but I think it does in the lexicon of many.
It would seem to me that the distinction between "lads" as common
young men and "lads" as a group of friends would be in the perspective
of the person using the term. To you they are common, but to him they
are friends.
"Lad" is no more friendly than "Fellow". "Out with the lads" is like
"Out with the boys" -- "out with" is the thing that points toward
friendship.
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I'll simplify -- The person you go out with is your friend, so yes,
"going out with the lads" does imply friendship, but it is not because
of "lad", except, of course, that the mere fact that you are using a
slangish word indicates a light hearted topic.
~Iain |
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