| Author |
Message |
Zomby Woof
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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Heavens...I just found it.
ZW
"Zomby Woof" <popil8644@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:_UJ_e.279319$Hk.26556@pd7tw1no...
| Quote: | You're kidding about "alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe", aren't you?
ZW
"Daniel James" <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote in message
news:VA.00000c4c.0a836f04@nospam.aaisp.org...
In article news:<jSp_e.567965$s54.461591@pd7tw2no>, Zomby Woof wrote:
I've just stumbled upon this newsgroup. Fortunately, I wasn't injured.
Since I write for a living (radio commercials), I think I'll find the
conversation around here very interesting.
Welcome. The conversation varies between lively and interesting to dull
and
uninformed ... but in what forum is that not the case?
I'd like to take this opportunity to vent over something that seems to
be on
the rise...the use of apostrophes when pluralizing.
Let me introduce you to another new (to you) group:
alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe. Mind your toes when stumbling
across that
one!
... example I come across almost daily is a local sandwich shop with a
sign
outside that reads "Sub's." (As far as I know, it isn't owned by anyone
named "Sub".)
You are fortunate. I have to suffer "panini's".
Cheers,
Daniel.
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Zomby Woof
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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You're kidding about "alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe", aren't you?
ZW
"Daniel James" <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote in message
news:VA.00000c4c.0a836f04@nospam.aaisp.org...
| Quote: | In article news:<jSp_e.567965$s54.461591@pd7tw2no>, Zomby Woof wrote:
I've just stumbled upon this newsgroup. Fortunately, I wasn't injured.
Since I write for a living (radio commercials), I think I'll find the
conversation around here very interesting.
Welcome. The conversation varies between lively and interesting to dull
and
uninformed ... but in what forum is that not the case?
I'd like to take this opportunity to vent over something that seems to be
on
the rise...the use of apostrophes when pluralizing.
Let me introduce you to another new (to you) group:
alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe. Mind your toes when stumbling across
that
one!
... example I come across almost daily is a local sandwich shop with a
sign
outside that reads "Sub's." (As far as I know, it isn't owned by anyone
named "Sub".)
You are fortunate. I have to suffer "panini's".
Cheers,
Daniel.
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P Darby
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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"JoeTaxpayer" <JoeTaxpayer@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uqCdnVo4zrUiF6feRVn-hg@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
P Darby wrote:
"Zomby Woof" <popil8644@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jSp_e.567965$s54.461591@pd7tw2no...
I've just stumbled upon this newsgroup. Fortunately, I wasn't injured.
Since I write for a living (radio commercials), I think I'll find the
conversation around here very interesting.
I'd like to take this opportunity to vent over something that seems to be
on the rise...the use of apostrophes when pluralizing.
This seems to occur most often in business signage. The example I come
across almost daily is a local sandwich shop with a sign outside that
reads "Sub's." (As far as I know, it isn't owned by anyone named "Sub".)
Another sign down the road reads "Auto Part's".
We've just got a huge new shop near us, called 'Morrisons'.
Just as annoying; I think I'll boycott it, just to make a point!
If it's owned by two or more Morrisons, what is your issue? You need to
check how many.
JOE
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Just the one Mr Morrison.
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P Darby
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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"P Darby" <PD@BT.com> wrote in message
news:11jnlht1dl190c@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
"JoeTaxpayer" <JoeTaxpayer@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uqCdnVo4zrUiF6feRVn-hg@comcast.com...
P Darby wrote:
"Zomby Woof" <popil8644@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jSp_e.567965$s54.461591@pd7tw2no...
I've just stumbled upon this newsgroup. Fortunately, I wasn't injured.
Since I write for a living (radio commercials), I think I'll find the
conversation around here very interesting.
I'd like to take this opportunity to vent over something that seems to
be on the rise...the use of apostrophes when pluralizing.
This seems to occur most often in business signage. The example I come
across almost daily is a local sandwich shop with a sign outside that
reads "Sub's." (As far as I know, it isn't owned by anyone named "Sub".)
Another sign down the road reads "Auto Part's".
We've just got a huge new shop near us, called 'Morrisons'.
Just as annoying; I think I'll boycott it, just to make a point!
If it's owned by two or more Morrisons, what is your issue? You need to
check how many.
JOE
Just the one Mr Morrison.
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But lots of shops.
So I suppose they are all Morrison's shops, all called Morrisons. |
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Zen Cohen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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"DB." <dbircumshaw@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:vJt_e.2504$9l4.730@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
.....
Speaking of greens and apostrophes, in Houston, a new health-food restaurant
called "Field of Green's" opened recently. The apostrophe drove me crazy and
after awhile I went in, ordered some mashed yeast or something, and asked
them about it. The owner said that she actually knew it was incorrect but
the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their using
it if they placed an apostrophe in their name. Sounds kinda strange but that
was their story. If it were my restaurant, I'd have just come up with a
different name. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 04:11:10 GMT, "Zen Cohen" <aturny@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"DB." <dbircumshaw@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:vJt_e.2504$9l4.730@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
....
I dunno about where you live, but this is known as "the greengrocer's
apostrophe" here in the UK.
You write "I feel better now". This should put an end to that!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vivian.c/Punctuation/ApostGrocers.htm
Speaking of greens and apostrophes, in Houston, a new health-food restaurant
called "Field of Green's" opened recently. The apostrophe drove me crazy and
after awhile I went in, ordered some mashed yeast or something, and asked
them about it. The owner said that she actually knew it was incorrect but
the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their using
it if they placed an apostrophe in their name. Sounds kinda strange but that
was their story. If it were my restaurant, I'd have just come up with a
different name.
|
Actually, it makes a great deal of sense. The restaurant's owner
probably made an asset-only purchase of the business (the only
sensible way to buy a business). The former owner may have continued
in business for months after the sale of the restaurant part of the
business. He may have had to deal with accounts receivable, accounts
payable and the sale of assets not included in the transaction. The
former owner needed to keep "Field of Greens" alive as a corporation
to write checks, cash checks, sell things, deal with outside
investments, and do his taxes.
Since two corporations can't be registered with the exact same name,
the new owner needed to have a different name. Since the Field of
Greens name was known in the community, the new owner probably wanted
to capitalize on this. Adding the apostrophe was a simple way to do
it, and most customers wouldn't notice the change. He could make the
required changes with a marking pen. Your way requires new signs, new
menus, and selling the public on a new restaurant.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Zen Cohen
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ksepj19ij69b4es698gf374f14bjq39l5j@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 04:11:10 GMT, "Zen Cohen" <aturny@hotmail.com
wrote:
"DB." <dbircumshaw@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:vJt_e.2504$9l4.730@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
....
I dunno about where you live, but this is known as "the greengrocer's
apostrophe" here in the UK.
You write "I feel better now". This should put an end to that!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vivian.c/Punctuation/ApostGrocers.htm
Speaking of greens and apostrophes, in Houston, a new health-food
restaurant
called "Field of Green's" opened recently. The apostrophe drove me crazy
and
after awhile I went in, ordered some mashed yeast or something, and asked
them about it. The owner said that she actually knew it was incorrect but
the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their using
it if they placed an apostrophe in their name. Sounds kinda strange but
that
was their story. If it were my restaurant, I'd have just come up with a
different name.
Actually, it makes a great deal of sense. The restaurant's owner
probably made an asset-only purchase of the business .....
|
Lotta speculation there. The restaurant was a new venture. |
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Roderick Stewart
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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|
In article <ksepj19ij69b4es698gf374f14bjq39l5j@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | Speaking of greens and apostrophes, in Houston, a new health-food restaurant
called "Field of Green's" opened recently. The apostrophe drove me crazy and
after awhile I went in, ordered some mashed yeast or something, and asked
them about it. The owner said that she actually knew it was incorrect but
the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their using
it if they placed an apostrophe in their name. Sounds kinda strange but that
was their story. If it were my restaurant, I'd have just come up with a
different name.
[...]
Since two corporations can't be registered with the exact same name,
the new owner needed to have a different name. Since the Field of
Greens name was known in the community, the new owner probably wanted
to capitalize on this. Adding the apostrophe was a simple way to do
it, and most customers wouldn't notice the change.
|
The computer system that presumably handles the administration of this sort of
thing would have been happy with an extra space character at the end. This
wouldn't have required any alteration of the sign unless the owners of the name
wanted to be awkward, in which case quote marks could have been added to make
clear the presence of the space, thus - "Field of Greens "
Rod. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 05:25:20 GMT, "Zen Cohen" <aturny@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ksepj19ij69b4es698gf374f14bjq39l5j@4ax.com...
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 04:11:10 GMT, "Zen Cohen" <aturny@hotmail.com
wrote:
"DB." <dbircumshaw@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:vJt_e.2504$9l4.730@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
....
I dunno about where you live, but this is known as "the greengrocer's
apostrophe" here in the UK.
You write "I feel better now". This should put an end to that!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/vivian.c/Punctuation/ApostGrocers.htm
Speaking of greens and apostrophes, in Houston, a new health-food
restaurant
called "Field of Green's" opened recently. The apostrophe drove me crazy
and
after awhile I went in, ordered some mashed yeast or something, and asked
them about it. The owner said that she actually knew it was incorrect but
the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their using
it if they placed an apostrophe in their name. Sounds kinda strange but
that
was their story. If it were my restaurant, I'd have just come up with a
different name.
Actually, it makes a great deal of sense. The restaurant's owner
probably made an asset-only purchase of the business .....
Lotta speculation there. The restaurant was a new venture.
|
If the restaurant was a new venture, why did someone else hold the
rights to "Field of Greens"? It's possible that someone decided to
register the name and not do anything with it the way people register
catchy domain names, but the information you presented invites the
speculation I offered.
The speculation was only about the specific reason involved based on
what you provided. The scenario itself, though, is not speculative.
It's a description of what happens routinely when a firm changes
ownership.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Zen Cohen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
|
|
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4kcqj1p8mclra6b4fejgpc7nisfotgc58d@4ax.com...
......
| Quote: | If the restaurant was a new venture, why did someone else hold the
rights to "Field of Greens"? It's possible that someone decided to
register the name ....
|
That's what they said was the case.
| Quote: | but the information you presented invites the
speculation I offered....
|
ok, whatever. |
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Daniel James
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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|
In article news:<4kcqj1p8mclra6b4fejgpc7nisfotgc58d@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper
wrote:
| Quote: | If the restaurant was a new venture, why did someone else hold the
rights to "Field of Greens"?
|
I was going to start a new busines around here -- I was going to call it
"Kodak", but it turns out someone else has the rights to the name. How
could that be?
OK, not really; but I think it's entirely plausible that "Field of Greens"
might be registered for an entirely different business in an entirely
different part of the country from the restaurant the OP described. They
might be trading under that name -- and might have been doing so for years
-- and it doesn't seem unreasonable that they might wish to prevent others
from using the same name.
I can't see why they thought "Field of Green's" was sufficiently different
to allow others to use it (unless they thought it looked so stupid that
anyone who was prepared to do so would get nothing but ridicule) though.
| Quote: | The speculation was only about the specific reason involved based on
what you provided. The scenario itself, though, is not speculative.
It's a description of what happens routinely when a firm changes
ownership.
|
Zen Cohen's first post made it fairly clear that this was a case of a new
business, though. It does seem that in this case you added two and two -
and misread one of the twos as a three - and made it add up to seven.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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|
On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 11:50:12 +0100, Daniel James
<wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
| Quote: | I can't see why they thought "Field of Green's" was sufficiently different
to allow others to use it (unless they thought it looked so stupid that
anyone who was prepared to do so would get nothing but ridicule) though.
|
It is sufficiently different to people than need it to be sufficiently
different: the State of (wherever). The state will not allow two
businesses with the same name to be registered. The state does not
require any specific difference, but that the name be different. The
apostrophe addition would satisfy them since it wouldn't result in a
match.
This was done, according to the posting, with the permission of the
holder of "Field of Greens". If it was not done with the permission
of the holder, the holder could sue on the basis that the new name was
intentionally misleading and therefore infringing on the holder's
rights.
Having bought and sold businesses, I've been down this road. One of
the negotiating points of buying or selling a business is the use of
the name. The usual drill is to come to an agreement with the other
party and then submit the proposed name to the state. Sometimes the
state will reject the proposed name because it is already in use even
though the use is not known to either party in the current
transaction. Sometimes it just flies.
Even if the buyer and seller agree on a name, and even though the
state accepts the name, the new owner is not completely safe. Some
other party, unknown to either party in the transaction, may hold a
similar name and bring suit. When the name proposed is something that
might be already used, the new owner would have a search performed to
determine if the new name might be a problem.
| Quote: | The speculation was only about the specific reason involved based on
what you provided. The scenario itself, though, is not speculative.
It's a description of what happens routinely when a firm changes
ownership.
Zen Cohen's first post made it fairly clear that this was a case of a new
business, though. It does seem that in this case you added two and two -
and misread one of the twos as a three - and made it add up to seven.
It wasn't clear to me. It was clear that it was a new venture to the |
individual, but not that the business itself was new. If I buy a
restaurant that has been in business for 10 years, I would describe it
as a new venture because it's new to me.
Where I erred was thinking that Zen was asking a question or
interested in why something like the change would be made. Evidently
he wasn't, and was just posting an observation and a minor rant.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
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|
In article news:<nc5tj1lb30sqbso3t1mruuf5g5unsk4cb2@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper
wrote:
| Quote: | It is sufficiently different to people than need it to be sufficiently
different: the State of (wherever). The state will not allow two
businesses with the same name to be registered. The state does not
require any specific difference, but that the name be different. The
apostrophe addition would satisfy them since it wouldn't result in a
match.
|
OK, if it's simply a requirement of the State that no two businesses may be
identically named I can see why an apostrophe would suffice.
However, Zen Cohen did write:
| Quote: | ... the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their
using it if they placed an apostrophe in their name.
|
... which led me to believe that this was not a legal registration issue.
| Quote: | If it was not done with the permission of the holder, the holder could
sue ...
|
So two different things are acting together, here. I understand.
| Quote: | If I buy a restaurant that has been in business for 10 years, I would
describe it as a new venture because it's new to me.
|
That would be entirely reasonable, given the context. Zen's observation was
made in the context of an disinterested third party noticing that a new
restaurant had opened in his neighbourhood. I think that that context makes
it clear that the restaurant is new to the neighbourhood, not just to its
owners. (Though, of course, it could have been an existing business that
had changed hands and moved to new premises, so the "existing business"
possibility still exists.)
| Quote: | Where I erred was thinking that Zen was asking a question or
interested in why something like the change would be made. Evidently
he wasn't, and was just posting an observation and a minor rant.
|
Such is the stuff of AEU.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
|
|
On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 12:48:17 +0100, Daniel James
<wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<nc5tj1lb30sqbso3t1mruuf5g5unsk4cb2@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper
wrote:
It is sufficiently different to people than need it to be sufficiently
different: the State of (wherever). The state will not allow two
businesses with the same name to be registered. The state does not
require any specific difference, but that the name be different. The
apostrophe addition would satisfy them since it wouldn't result in a
match.
OK, if it's simply a requirement of the State that no two businesses may be
identically named I can see why an apostrophe would suffice.
However, Zen Cohen did write:
... the holder of the mark "Field of Greens" would only consent to their
using it if they placed an apostrophe in their name.
.. which led me to believe that this was not a legal registration issue.
|
You are relying on Zen's accounting to be an accurate representation
of what actually happened. I'm more inclined to think that Zen's
accounting is a reasonable approximation of the results. After all,
all we know is that Zen asked the owner a question and the owner
replied. We don't know that the owner felt it was necessary to
explain what led to using the apostrophe.
It's feasible that the decision to add the apostrophe was made after a
long discussion of what variants would be acceptable and that the
insertion of the apostrophe was the only variation offered that was
approved.
| Quote: | That would be entirely reasonable, given the context. Zen's observation was
made in the context of an disinterested third party noticing that a new
restaurant had opened in his neighbourhood. I think that that context makes
it clear that the restaurant is new to the neighbourhood, not just to its
owners. (Though, of course, it could have been an existing business that
had changed hands and moved to new premises, so the "existing business"
possibility still exists.)
|
As it turns out, Field of Green's occupies the space that was once
Ziggy's Healthy Grille and the owners of Field of Green's formerly ran
Soya Cafe and Moveable Feast. Evidently, Field of Green's is a new
restaurant and a first-time appearance of the name "Field of Green's".
It also turns out that "Fields of Greens" is the copyrighted title of
a book by Annie Somerville. (Note the plural "fields") Dunno if this
has anything to do with it, though, but Annie is quite well known in
the health food crowd, and the restaurant is a health food restaurant.
| Quote: | Where I erred was thinking that Zen was asking a question or
interested in why something like the change would be made. Evidently
he wasn't, and was just posting an observation and a minor rant.
Such is the stuff of AEU.
Cheers,
Daniel.
|
--
Making an effort to include a condemnable term in every posting.
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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No Spam
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Misplaced Apostrophes |
|
|
"Don Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote in message
news:DIw_e.4418$5I2.16364@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
| Quote: | "Zomby Woof" <popil8644@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:jSp_e.567965$s54.461591@pd7tw2no...
. . . the use of apostrophes when pluralizing.
This seems to occur most often in business signage. The example I come
across almost daily is a local sandwich shop with a sign outside that
reads
"Sub's." (As far as I know, it isn't owned by anyone named "Sub".)
Another
sign down the road reads "Auto Part's".
You have not quite yet caught up. See last year's
best-seller "Eats Shoots and Leaves," in which this
phenomenon is fully examined.
|
Hardly. The book is a superficial popularization of the
issue, which is both incomplete and in places ill-informed. |
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