| Author |
Message |
Thomas Easterling
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:57 am
Post subject: The crew ways the ship? |
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Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc...
I'm in the middle of a, ummm, 'heated debate' about the verb "to way"
as applied to ships.
Someone claims that "The crew ways the ship" is quite standard Navy
terminology to mean that the crew are controlling or driving or piloting
-- or whatever the right word is! -- the ship.
According to him:
| Quote: | In the Navy the term is still very much alive.
That's after finding no mention of "to way" in this context in on-line |
dictionaries and CD-ROM dictionaries (the nearest I found was in NSOED
"to way" with three meanings, one being intransitive [thus ruling out
"to way the ship"] and the other two very specialized relating to horses
and wagons; and all of those are marked as "archaic" anyway, so it
hardly supports the "very much alive" claim).
The unfortunate part is that my, um, opponent thinks that merely
saying "I said so, so it must be true" is evidence enough and refuses
to give any verifiable citations for this usage, so I'm wondering if
anyone here can:
1. Confirm the usage (even from personal recollection would be okay to
begin with); and
2. Provide actual evidence more reliable than personal say-so.
Thanks.
--
TE
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Peter
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:57 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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It is not 'way' but 'weigh' as in 'weigh anchor'
--
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Thomas Easterling
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Peter wrote:
| Quote: | It is not 'way' but 'weigh' as in 'weigh anchor'
|
So you're suggesting "The crew weighs the ship"?
I'm looking for any use of "way" to mean "control" or "steer" or
"pilot" or whatever it is that you do to ships to make them travel
correctly!
--
TE
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:02 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Thomas Easterling spake thusly:
| Quote: | Peter wrote:
It is not 'way' but 'weigh' as in 'weigh anchor'
So you're suggesting "The crew weighs the ship"?
I'm looking for any use of "way" to mean "control" or "steer" or
"pilot" or whatever it is that you do to ships to make them travel
correctly!
|
Are you referring to the ship being "under way", which means to get
moving. And we also use "way" on its own to mean movement through
the water - a rudder is useless without way (that is, rudders only
work if the ship is moving).
--
David
=====
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Thomas Easterling
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:21 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Thomas Easterling spake thusly:
Peter wrote:
It is not 'way' but 'weigh' as in 'weigh anchor'
So you're suggesting "The crew weighs the ship"?
I'm looking for any use of "way" to mean "control" or "steer" or
"pilot" or whatever it is that you do to ships to make them travel
correctly!
Are you referring to the ship being "under way", which means to get
moving. And we also use "way" on its own to mean movement through
the water - a rudder is useless without way (that is, rudders only
work if the ship is moving).
|
I'm not referring to anything, really, just looking for even the slightest
glimmer of evidence. As I said in my first message, I have no reference
at all for a usage of the verb "to way" meaning "to control/steer/etc a
ship." A person on a newsgroup far far away is arguing that there is
and that it's standard Navy terminology, and he's still claiming it to
be so despite my not being able to find anything to back him up.
I'm looking for any citation or reference that would support the
position of my 'opponent' (if I can call him such) that it *does*
have this meaning. Having exhausted all the paper, on-line, and CDROM
dictionaries I have access to, I'm now turning to real live people in
order to say that I tried every possible avenue of inquiry before
soundly rejecting what he is telling me.
--
TE |
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Thomas Easterling
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:30 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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[alt.usage.english added to Newsgroups]
Thomas Easterling wrote:
| Quote: | Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc...
I'm in the middle of a, ummm, 'heated debate' about the verb "to way"
as applied to ships.
Someone claims that "The crew ways the ship" is quite standard Navy
terminology to mean that the crew are controlling or driving or
piloting -- or whatever the right word is! -- the ship.
According to him:
In the Navy the term is still very much alive.
That's after finding no mention of "to way" in this context in on-line
dictionaries and CD-ROM dictionaries (the nearest I found was in NSOED
"to way" with three meanings, one being intransitive [thus ruling out
"to way the ship"] and the other two very specialized relating to
horses and wagons; and all of those are marked as "archaic" anyway, so
it hardly supports the "very much alive" claim).
The unfortunate part is that my, um, opponent thinks that merely
saying "I said so, so it must be true" is evidence enough and refuses
to give any verifiable citations for this usage, so I'm wondering if
anyone here can:
1. Confirm the usage (even from personal recollection would be okay to
begin with); and
2. Provide actual evidence more reliable than personal say-so.
|
I probably should have cross- or multi-posted this in the first place,
I realize.
So, yeah, what he said up there! In AEU, someone has already replied
with "weigh anchor" and someone else with "under way" (which I kind of
expected and probably should have mentioned; it's the transitive verb
"to way X" that I'm querying), so I'm posting this to AUE in the hope
that some current or ex sea-faring people might be able to help.
Thanks.
--
TE |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:43 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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"Thomas Easterling" <zzzthomzzz@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96D4E57DDC575TEeast@216.128.74.13...
| Quote: | [alt.usage.english added to Newsgroups]
So, yeah, what he said up there! In AEU, someone has already replied
with "weigh anchor" and someone else with "under way" (which I kind of
expected and probably should have mentioned; it's the transitive verb
"to way X" that I'm querying), so I'm posting this to AUE in the hope
|
This restatement is helpful because it reminds us we need
beforehand some way of distinguishing whether negative results (no
citation of "to way X" in actual use) mean this is not part of the
language (case a) or this may be part of the language but
no one has yet cited any instance (case b).
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:44 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Which navy?
In Alt.English.usage one might expect the term to apply to The Navy.
alt.USage.english posters might tend to think of the navy in terms of
"their" one. Did you intend this to relate to the crews of US naval
ships?
Wrong group if so.
Besides; I doubt any of their crew have weighed a ship since Popeye. I
blieve the RN method is based on a fellow called Plimsoll |
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Thomas Easterling
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Weatherlawyer wrote:
| Quote: | Which navy?
In Alt.English.usage one might expect the term to apply to The Navy.
alt.USage.english posters might tend to think of the navy in terms of
"their" one. Did you intend this to relate to the crews of US naval
ships?
Wrong group if so.
Besides; I doubt any of their crew have weighed a ship since Popeye. I
blieve the RN method is based on a fellow called Plimsoll
|
Any Navy -- I don't care.
And I've been following AUE and AEU for almost 6 years now. I think
your description of what to post where is incorrect, based on my
knowledge of how these groups work.
--
TE |
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:57 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Thomas Easterling wrote:
| Quote: | Weatherlawyer wrote:
Which navy?
Any Navy -- I don't care.
|
You wish to know if the idiom is correct but are not bothered where the
idiom is used?
Perhaps it is a translation of the term used in the Mongolian Inshore
Waters Patrol that is being misuderstood by your significant other. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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On 17 Sep 2005 17:30:37 -0400, Thomas Easterling
<zzzthomzzz@talk21.com> wrote:
| Quote: | [alt.usage.english added to Newsgroups]
Thomas Easterling wrote:
Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc...
I'm in the middle of a, ummm, 'heated debate' about the verb "to way"
as applied to ships.
Someone claims that "The crew ways the ship" is quite standard Navy
terminology to mean that the crew are controlling or driving or
piloting -- or whatever the right word is! -- the ship.
According to him:
In the Navy the term is still very much alive.
That's after finding no mention of "to way" in this context in on-line
dictionaries and CD-ROM dictionaries (the nearest I found was in NSOED
"to way" with three meanings, one being intransitive [thus ruling out
"to way the ship"] and the other two very specialized relating to
horses and wagons; and all of those are marked as "archaic" anyway, so
it hardly supports the "very much alive" claim).
The unfortunate part is that my, um, opponent thinks that merely
saying "I said so, so it must be true" is evidence enough and refuses
to give any verifiable citations for this usage, so I'm wondering if
anyone here can:
1. Confirm the usage (even from personal recollection would be okay to
begin with); and
2. Provide actual evidence more reliable than personal say-so.
I probably should have cross- or multi-posted this in the first place,
I realize.
So, yeah, what he said up there! In AEU, someone has already replied
with "weigh anchor" and someone else with "under way" (which I kind of
expected and probably should have mentioned; it's the transitive verb
"to way X" that I'm querying), so I'm posting this to AUE in the hope
that some current or ex sea-faring people might be able to help.
Thanks.
|
Our resident expert in all things seafaring is Armond Peretta.
However, he docks at alt.usage.english and not alt.english.usage.
Should you venture over to aue, you need to trim your sails a bit and
polish up your brass lest you take one below the waterline. Ask the
question with a minimum of background, a great clarity of expression,
and sufficient context to make the question clear.
The aue group has a tendency to focus on the associated bits and
ignore the basic question.
You could cross-post to that group, but cross-posting is like chumming
shark infested waters.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Thomas Easterling
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:36 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
[snips]
| Quote: | Our resident expert in all things seafaring is Armond Peretta.
However, he docks at alt.usage.english and not alt.english.usage.
Should you venture over to aue, you need to trim your sails a bit and
polish up your brass lest you take one below the waterline. Ask the
question with a minimum of background, a great clarity of expression,
and sufficient context to make the question clear.
The aue group has a tendency to focus on the associated bits and
ignore the basic question.
You could cross-post to that group, but cross-posting is like chumming
shark infested waters.
|
That's a stern outlook.
--
TE |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Thomas Easterling wrote:
| Quote: | Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc...
|
Welcome. Now don't leave it so long next time ...
| Quote: |
I'm in the middle of a, ummm, 'heated debate' about the verb "to way"
as applied to ships.
Someone claims that "The crew ways the ship" is quite standard Navy
terminology to mean that the crew are controlling or driving or
piloting -- or whatever the right word is! -- the ship.
According to him:
In the Navy the term is still very much alive.
|
Not in any of the English-speaking Navies, AFAIK
| Quote: |
The unfortunate part is that my, um, opponent thinks that merely
saying "I said so, so it must be true" is evidence enough and refuses
to give any verifiable citations for this usage.
|
Lucky you stumbled across a forum where we don't do that kind of thing
....
| Quote: | so I'm wondering if
anyone here can:
1. Confirm the usage (even from personal recollection would be okay to
begin with); and
2. Provide actual evidence more reliable than personal say-so.
|
Let me give a selection from the OED, bearing in mind that the Omrud has
already spoken of "way" the noun, origin of phrases like"under way".
Anyway (way!!! arf! I slay myself!!)
"Way" as a verb was used in relation to horses and wagons and is no
longer current. Examples:
2. trans. (See quot. 1706.) Also erron. weigh, waigh.
1639 T. de Grey Compl. Horsem. i. v. (1656) 43 Untill such time as he
hath been+made gentle,+content to be shod, to be Back'd, Broken, Ridden,
Wayed, Mouthed. ... 1706 Phillips (ed. Kersey), To Way a Horse, is to
teach him to travel in the Ways.
3. To set (a waggon) on the made way or track on which it runs.
1763 in London Mag. (1764) 145/2 When a waggon happens to be off the
waggon-way, if laden, it will take two or three horses to way the waggon
again.
So possibly it was used of ships back in the day, but it seems
unlikely.
"weigh" as a verb, however, has a considerable nautical pedigree.
c. absol. = to weigh anchor. Hence, to sail (from, out of a port, etc.).
... 1613 J. Saris Voy. Japan (Hakl. Soc.) 1 The 14th in the morning
we wayed out of the roade of Bantam for Japan. a1647 Pette in
Archaeologia XII. 226 On Wednesday+we weighed from Limehouse, and
anchored right against the Tower. 1748 Anson's Voy. i. iv. (ed. 4) 47
On the 3d of November we weighed from Madera. 1808 Wellington in Gurw.
Desp. IV. 193, I found about 60 of the convoy had lost their anchors in
attempting to weigh. 1867 Pall Mall Gaz. 19 July 9/1 It would have been
necessary for each ship to weigh singly, which would have occupied
fifteen minutes each. 1893 H. M. Doughty Wherry in Wendish Lands 20 In
the morning we weighed early.
So mayhap your "someone" has seen phrases like "we weighed from
Limehouse" and assumed it would be OK to insert "the ship" after
"weighed". It isn't, but we can't prove that.
There's also a specialist meaning:
6. a. To raise (a sunk ship, gun, etc.) from the bottom of the water.
Also with up.
. 1669 Sturmy Mariner's Mag. v. xii. 81 Rules to weigh Ships, or
Guns, or any thing else in the Water. ... 1783 Cowper Let. to J. Hill
20 Oct., I must beg leave, however+to mourn+that the Royal George cannot
be weighed. ... 1815 Local Act 55 Geo. III c. lv. §73 If any Boat+shall
be sunk in any Part of the said Canal,+and the Owner+shall not, without
loss of Time, weigh or draw up the same.
So "someone" might actually have seen or heard a phrase somewhere "the
crew weighed the ship" (and, if written, perhaps with a variant/
antiquated spelling of "weighed") and assumed it had something to do
with being under way when it really had to do with salvage.
Finally, although it cannot be definitive, it's often interesting to
Google phrases like this to see if anyone uses them on-line and, if so,
how. On my server, Google has nothing for ["crew ways the ship"] or
["crew wayed the ship"], nor for "weighs" or "weighed"
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Jeffrey Turner
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:01 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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Thomas Easterling wrote:
| Quote: | [alt.usage.english added to Newsgroups]
Thomas Easterling wrote:
Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc...
I'm in the middle of a, ummm, 'heated debate' about the verb "to way"
as applied to ships.
Someone claims that "The crew ways the ship" is quite standard Navy
terminology to mean that the crew are controlling or driving or
piloting -- or whatever the right word is! -- the ship.
According to him:
In the Navy the term is still very much alive.
That's after finding no mention of "to way" in this context in on-line
dictionaries and CD-ROM dictionaries (the nearest I found was in NSOED
"to way" with three meanings, one being intransitive [thus ruling out
"to way the ship"] and the other two very specialized relating to
horses and wagons; and all of those are marked as "archaic" anyway, so
it hardly supports the "very much alive" claim).
The unfortunate part is that my, um, opponent thinks that merely
saying "I said so, so it must be true" is evidence enough and refuses
to give any verifiable citations for this usage, so I'm wondering if
anyone here can:
1. Confirm the usage (even from personal recollection would be okay to
begin with); and
2. Provide actual evidence more reliable than personal say-so.
I probably should have cross- or multi-posted this in the first place,
I realize.
So, yeah, what he said up there! In AEU, someone has already replied
with "weigh anchor" and someone else with "under way" (which I kind of
expected and probably should have mentioned; it's the transitive verb
"to way X" that I'm querying), so I'm posting this to AUE in the hope
that some current or ex sea-faring people might be able to help.
|
According to my dictionary, American Heritage, "weigh" has a
Nautical meaning of "To sail out of port," but it's listed as
intransitive.
--Jeff
--
"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely
between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for
his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of
government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate
with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people
which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between
Church and State."
- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802 |
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James Silverton
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:13 am
Post subject: Re: The crew ways the ship? |
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John wrote on Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:46:22 +0100:
JD> Thomas Easterling wrote:
??>> Long-time lurker, first-time poster, etc...
JD> Welcome. Now don't leave it so long next time ...
??>>
??>> I'm in the middle of a, ummm, 'heated debate' about the
??>> verb "to way" as applied to ships.
??>>
??>> Someone claims that "The crew ways the ship" is quite
??>> standard Navy terminology to mean that the crew are
??>> controlling or driving or piloting -- or whatever the
??>> right word is! -- the ship.
??>>
??>> According to him:
??>>> In the Navy the term is still very much alive.
JD> Not in any of the English-speaking Navies, AFAIK
??>>
??>> The unfortunate part is that my, um, opponent thinks that
??>> merely saying "I said so, so it must be true" is evidence
??>> enough and refuses to give any verifiable citations for
??>> this usage.
JD> Lucky you stumbled across a forum where we don't do that
JD> kind of thing
JD> ...
??>> so I'm wondering if
??>> anyone here can:
??>> 1. Confirm the usage (even from personal recollection
??>> would be okay to begin with); and 2. Provide actual
??>> evidence more reliable than personal say-so.
JD> Let me give a selection from the OED, bearing in mind that
JD> the Omrud has already spoken of "way" the noun, origin of
JD> phrases like"under way". Anyway (way!!! arf! I slay
JD> myself!!)
JD> "Way" as a verb was used in relation to horses and wagons
JD> and is no longer current. Examples:
JD> 2. trans. (See quot. 1706.) Also erron. weigh, waigh.
JD> 1639 T. de Grey Compl. Horsem. i. v. (1656) 43 Untill
JD> such time as he hath been+made gentle,+content to be shod,
JD> to be Back'd, Broken, Ridden, Wayed, Mouthed. ... 1706
JD> Phillips (ed. Kersey), To Way a Horse, is to teach him to
JD> travel in the Ways.
JD> 3. To set (a waggon) on the made way or track on which
JD> it runs.
JD> 1763 in London Mag. (1764) 145/2 When a waggon happens
JD> to be off the waggon-way, if laden, it will take two or
JD> three horses to way the waggon again.
JD> So possibly it was used of ships back in the day, but it
JD> seems unlikely.
JD> "weigh" as a verb, however, has a considerable nautical
JD> pedigree. c. absol. = to weigh anchor. Hence, to sail
JD> (from, out of a port, etc.).
JD> So mayhap your "someone" has seen phrases like "we weighed
JD> from Limehouse" and assumed it would be OK to insert "the
JD> ship" after "weighed". It isn't, but we can't prove that.
JD> There's also a specialist meaning:
JD> So "someone" might actually have seen or heard a phrase
JD> somewhere "the crew weighed the ship" (and, if written,
JD> perhaps with a variant/ antiquated spelling of "weighed")
JD> and assumed it had something to do with being under way
JD> when it really had to do with salvage.
Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary is not one of my favorites but
it lists 13 uses of "weigh". The citation for "to raise" is
indicated as archaic but that meaning would seem to still be in
use in the phrase "to weigh anchor", which is given separately.
Another somewhat different use was "The ship weighed early and
escaped in the fog" so the ship may weigh even if the
intervention of the crew is only implied.
James Silverton.
Potomac, Maryland. |
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