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Richard Yates
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Singular 'they' |
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This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past, and I
note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription. After
stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago I
have been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations during that time
suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no longer a controversy
but, rather, that the singular 'they' has become the universal usage whether
in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts, or editorials. It
still clangs in my ear, especially after it emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations I
hope they will chime in.
Richard Yates
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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"Richard Yates" <rayates53@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JP-dnTluXMd-oL_eRVn-qw@comcast.com...
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past, and I
note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription. After
stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago I
have been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations during that
time
suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no longer a controversy
but, rather, that the singular 'they' has become the universal usage
whether
in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts, or editorials. It
still clangs in my ear, especially after it emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations I
hope they will chime in.
|
I think most of us hear this and are in the same boat as you are. In
recurring discussions here, I think we agree that in the UK the "singular
they" (Lord, don't ask me for an example now!) is more frequently used and
accepted, but most of us in the US use it, as well, at least in the spoken
form. But whether written or spoken, I go through the pangs of hell trying
to get around the use of it. Rewording the sentence is easier in writing,
of course. So it is the spoken form that hurts. |
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Roderick Stewart
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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In article <JP-dnTluXMd-oL_eRVn-qw@comcast.com>, Richard Yates wrote:
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past, and I
note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription. After
stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago I
have been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations during that time
suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no longer a controversy
but, rather, that the singular 'they' has become the universal usage whether
in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts, or editorials. It
still clangs in my ear, especially after it emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations I
hope they will chime in.
|
I agree it sounds odd, but that may just be because it's new, and not
necessarily a bad thing. I use it myself sometimes as what is probably the
least awkward way of avoiding gender-specific pronouns in situations where a
reference to gender would not be relevant.
The precedent for this is of course the "singular you" instead of "thee" and
"thou". We've abandoned second person singulars in English, despite other
languages having retained them, and it doesn't seem to have caused the end of
civilisation as we know it, so I daresay third person pronouns can survive the
same treatment.
Rod.
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Richard Yates
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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| Quote: | Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations
I
hope they will chime in.
I agree it sounds odd, but that may just be because it's new, and not
necessarily a bad thing. I use it myself sometimes as what is probably the
least awkward way of avoiding gender-specific pronouns in situations where
a
reference to gender would not be relevant.
|
I guess my question was not completely clear. Does anyone ever hear or read
anything *but* the singular 'they' these days?
Richard Yates |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:03 am
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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Richard Yates wrote:
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past,
and I note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription. After
stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months
ago I have been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations
during that time suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no
longer a controversy but, rather, that the singular 'they' has become
the universal usage whether in informal speech, newspapers and
magazines, newscasts, or editorials. It still clangs in my ear,
especially after it emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has
observations I hope they will chime in.
|
It's in common but not universal use. Those who dislike it and / or
reject it tend to be strong in his / her opinions and challenge it
wherever they are used.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Don H
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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"Richard Yates" <rayates53@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JP-dnTluXMd-oL_eRVn-qw@comcast.com...
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past, and I
note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription. After
stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago I
have been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations during that
time
suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no longer a controversy
but, rather, that the singular 'they' has become the universal usage
whether
in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts, or editorials. It
still clangs in my ear, especially after it emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations I
hope they will chime in.
Richard Yates
# You can try coining a word, so for third person singular we have - |
"he,she,ge,it" - where "ge" is either male or female; gender unspecified.
Or, use "(s)he", which is somewhat cumbersome.
Example:
"A person would be silly to jump off a cliff, unless ge had a parachute,
glider, or other means of attempting a safe landing".
I often use "rehd" for past tense of "read". |
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James Silverton
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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Don wrote on Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:18:21 GMT:
DH> "Richard Yates" <rayates53@comcast.net> wrote in message
DH> news:JP-dnTluXMd-oL_eRVn-qw@comcast.com...
??>> This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in
??>> the past, and I note the many web sites that either decry
??>> or advocate it. But my question/observation is about
??>> current usage, not prescription. After stumbling badly in
??>> the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago I have
??>> been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations
??>> during that
DH> time
??>> suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no longer
??>> a controversy but, rather, that the singular 'they' has
??>> become the universal usage
DH> whether
??>> in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts,
??>> or editorials. It still clangs in my ear, especially after
??>> it emerges from my own mouth.
??>>
??>> Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone
??>> has observations I hope they will chime in.
??>>
??>> Richard Yates
??>>
Personally, I am bringing myself to follow the usage of the
Times of London and use a singular "they" although I have not
considered myself British for 40 years. A Google search brings
up a large amount of previous discussion and I rather liked the
mention in
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Gender-neutral_pronoun
that there was historical precedent for using "ou" or "a". I
much prefer the use of one of the three: "they", "ou" or "a" to
synthetic words or "it" or gender neutral pronouns from other
languages.
Gender neutrality in English seems hard to achieve even for
other things than pronouns. Despite the common usage in Scotland
of the word "convener" with the same function as "chairman", I
have noticed the use even there of the inelegant (IMHO) word
"chair".
James Silverton,
Potomac, Maryland. |
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Don H
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:26 am
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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"James Silverton" <not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:L9Gdne4rFuhRHrjeRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
Personally, I am bringing myself to follow the usage of the
Times of London and use a singular "they" although I have not
considered myself British for 40 years. A Google search brings
up a large amount of previous discussion and I rather liked the
mention in
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Gender-neutral_pronoun
that there was historical precedent for using "ou" or "a". I
much prefer the use of one of the three: "they", "ou" or "a" to
synthetic words or "it" or gender neutral pronouns from other
languages.
Gender neutrality in English seems hard to achieve even for
other things than pronouns. Despite the common usage in Scotland
of the word "convener" with the same function as "chairman", I
have noticed the use even there of the inelegant (IMHO) word
"chair".
James Silverton,
Potomac, Maryland.
|
# In the case of "chairman", there's no reason why "chairwoman" can't be
used, if a woman is presiding - or "president", come to that; though the
latter could seem a bit too highfalutin' for a mere meeting of common folk.
"Secretary" is person who records the Minutes; a gender-neutral term. Yes,
I'd settle for President; removes any reference to furniture. |
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jjw1937
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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Richard Yates wrote:
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past, and I
note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription. After
stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago I
have been hypersensitive to its occurrence. My observations during that time
suggest that, in actual practice, this really is no longer a controversy
but, rather, that the singular 'they' has become the universal usage whether
in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts, or editorials. It
still clangs in my ear, especially after it emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations I
hope they will chime in.
Richard Yates
If any one person in a group are confused thay are not the only one. |
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Weatherlawyer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:27 am
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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|
Richard Yates wrote:
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the past, and I
note the many web sites that either decry or advocate it. But my
question/observation is about current usage, not prescription.
After stumbling badly in the middle of a conversation a couple of months ago
I have been hypersensitive to its occurrence.
|
Och, ye pair wee thing. |
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Richard R. Hershberger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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|
Richard Yates wrote:
| Quote: | Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has observations
I
hope they will chime in.
I agree it sounds odd, but that may just be because it's new, and not
necessarily a bad thing. I use it myself sometimes as what is probably the
least awkward way of avoiding gender-specific pronouns in situations where
a
reference to gender would not be relevant.
I guess my question was not completely clear. Does anyone ever hear or read
anything *but* the singular 'they' these days?
|
I strongly suspect that even those who profess distain of the usage
read and hear it frequently without noticing it, so much is it a part
of the natural language. But yes, I do occasionally still come across
the putatively non-gender-specific 'he'. I know this because I find it
jarring, and it attracts my attention. At least some of the time. I
imagine that sometimes it just slides by, but I wouldn't really know,
now would I?
Richard R. Hershberger |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Singular 'they' |
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On 10 Sep 2005, Richard Yates wrote
| Quote: | This topic has undoubtedly been thrashed in this group in the
past, and I note the many web sites that either decry or advocate
it. But my question/observation is about current usage, not
prescription. After stumbling badly in the middle of a
conversation a couple of months ago I have been hypersensitive to
its occurrence. My observations during that time suggest that, in
actual practice, this really is no longer a controversy but,
rather, that the singular 'they' has become the universal usage
whether in informal speech, newspapers and magazines, newscasts,
or editorials. It still clangs in my ear, especially after it
emerges from my own mouth.
Are others hearing and reading this the same? If anyone has
observations I hope they will chime in.
|
It sounds sufficiently unremarkable to me these days that I don't think
I even notice it any more. I probably use it; I don't bother worrying
about it.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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