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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: "Peanuts" |
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What is the origin of the expression "peanuts" to refer to something
insignificant?
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Don Phillipson
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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<raghu_madras@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126064179.748493.116540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | What is the origin of the expression "peanuts" to refer to something
insignificant?
|
Possibly in the early 20th century, by the coincidence of
(1) George Washington Carver's campaign to increase
consumption of peanuts (i.e. find new markets for a new
crop in the US South not already controlled by the
current agribusiness establishment)
(2) Market for snacks consumed in theatres, among
which peanuts in popcorn are the cheapest in unit cost.
The OP question might be answered by the date when the
cheapest seats in US theatres (reserved for black patrons in
the US South) came to be called the "peanut gallery." This
may have been the vehicle through which "peanuts"
became the general appelation for anything small or trivial
(cf. Charles Schulz's newspaper strip in the early 1950s,
originally entitled Little People.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:57 pm
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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In alt.english.usage on Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:23:34 -0400 "Don
Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> posted:
| Quote: | raghu_madras@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126064179.748493.116540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What is the origin of the expression "peanuts" to refer to something
insignificant?
Possibly in the early 20th century, by the coincidence of
(1) George Washington Carver's campaign to increase
consumption of peanuts (i.e. find new markets for a new
crop in the US South not already controlled by the
current agribusiness establishment)
(2) Market for snacks consumed in theatres, among
which peanuts in popcorn are the cheapest in unit cost.
The OP question might be answered by the date when the
cheapest seats in US theatres (reserved for black patrons in
the US South) came to be called the "peanut gallery." This
may have been the vehicle through which "peanuts"
became the general appelation for anything small or trivial
(cf. Charles Schulz's newspaper strip in the early 1950s,
originally entitled Little People.)
|
I hadn't thought about this question before. I have no idea what
Wordnet of Princeton University is, but it says, in part,
"peanut gallery
n 1: (figurative) people whose criticisms are regarded as irrelevant
or insignificant (resembling uneducated people who throw peanuts on
the stage to express displeasure with a performance);"
When there were segregated theatres, I can't imagine black patrons
throwing peanuts at white performers.
If it was a black theatre with black performers, there would be no
special reason blacks would be sitting in the balcony, but they might
be.
Anyhow, somewhere it appears that some people in some balconies were
throwing peanuts. It would be nice to know who and where, but
regardless the result would have been those who were watching saying,
"It's just peanuts." So that would account for the notion of peanuts
being insignificant.
There's a whole other word that got a similar meaning this way. I
can't remember it right now.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
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Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years
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No Spam
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:39 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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"meirman" <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:js2uh1hc9d9iori49tnfv7vfppaskt0o7s@4ax.com...
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Wed, 7 Sep 2005 11:23:34 -0400 "Don
Phillipson" <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> posted:
raghu_madras@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126064179.748493.116540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What is the origin of the expression "peanuts" to refer to something
insignificant?
Possibly in the early 20th century, by the coincidence of
(1) George Washington Carver's campaign to increase
consumption of peanuts (i.e. find new markets for a new
crop in the US South not already controlled by the
current agribusiness establishment)
(2) Market for snacks consumed in theatres, among
which peanuts in popcorn are the cheapest in unit cost.
The OP question might be answered by the date when the
cheapest seats in US theatres (reserved for black patrons in
the US South) came to be called the "peanut gallery." This
may have been the vehicle through which "peanuts"
became the general appelation for anything small or trivial
(cf. Charles Schulz's newspaper strip in the early 1950s,
originally entitled Little People.)
I hadn't thought about this question before. I have no idea what
Wordnet of Princeton University is, but it says, in part,
"peanut gallery
n 1: (figurative) people whose criticisms are regarded as irrelevant
or insignificant (resembling uneducated people who throw peanuts on
the stage to express displeasure with a performance);"
When there were segregated theatres, I can't imagine black patrons
throwing peanuts at white performers.
|
There was a time in the USA, not too long ago, when peanuts
were considered to be food of blacks, and not suitable
for white people. This prejudice, perhaps related to
George Washington Carver, associated peanuts with black.
The "peanut gallery" had nothing to do with peanut-throwing,
it was where the perceived peanut-eaters sat, being banned
by Jim Crow from sitting downstairs with the PWT crackers.
| Quote: |
If it was a black theatre with black performers, there would be no
special reason blacks would be sitting in the balcony, but they might
be.
Anyhow, somewhere it appears that some people in some balconies were
throwing peanuts. It would be nice to know who and where, but
regardless the result would have been those who were watching saying,
"It's just peanuts." So that would account for the notion of peanuts
being insignificant.
There's a whole other word that got a similar meaning this way. I
can't remember it right now.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full
sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are
asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your
answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:20 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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In alt.english.usage on Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:39:14 GMT "No Spam"
<spam-me-no-spam@nospam.com> posted:
| Quote: |
There was a time in the USA, not too long ago, when peanuts
were considered to be food of blacks, and not suitable
for white people. This prejudice, perhaps related to
George Washington Carver, associated peanuts with black.
The "peanut gallery" had nothing to do with peanut-throwing,
it was where the perceived peanut-eaters sat, being banned
by Jim Crow from sitting downstairs with the PWT crackers.
|
Maybe you're right. Until yesterday, I thought the peanut gallery was
where children sat. Partly because I'm sure I heard it used that way
on some children's show of the 50's and partly because kids are
little, like peanuts. Some kid on a sitcom was nicknamed peanut, I
think because he or she was little.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:13 pm
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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On 08 Sep 2005, John Dean wrote
re: peanut gallery
| Quote: | *Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was
to do with people throwing peanuts. I would suspect it reflects
the idea that these were the cheapest seats (BrE "the gods") where
people might be expected to take the cheapest snacks. In the posh
seats, theatre goers would have their bonbons, comfits and
crystallised fruits. In the cheap gallery, a bag of nuts.
|
Pure surmise: could it not be that from the stage -- with the lights
up, of course -- all one could make ouit of the gallery was row of tiny
indistinguishable faces that looked like the peanuts they were eating?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:15 pm
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | raghu_madras@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126064179.748493.116540@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What is the origin of the expression "peanuts" to refer to something
insignificant?
The OP question might be answered by the date when the
cheapest seats in US theatres (reserved for black patrons in
the US South) came to be called the "peanut gallery."
|
OED gives :" 1888 Lippincott's Monthly Mag. XLII. 734 Go to the lowest
theatre in any of our large cities, or+mark what is called the 'Family
Circle' by theatre proprietors and to the general world is more
felicitously known as the 'Peanut Gallery'. "
*Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was to do
with people throwing peanuts. I would suspect it reflects the idea that
these were the cheapest seats (BrE "the gods") where people might be
expected to take the cheapest snacks. In the posh seats, theatre goers
would have their bonbons, comfits and crystallised fruits. In the cheap
gallery, a bag of nuts.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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In alt.english.usage on Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:15:57 +0100 "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> posted:
| Quote: |
*Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was to do
with people throwing peanuts.
|
You know, I shouldn't have cited Wordnet. It was the only
"definition" on the page that went into "origins", but I'd forgotten
that I already decide that Wordnet stinks. In another ng, someone
else cited a wordnet def. that used illogical English, and a related
term in that discussion was defined rediculously by them. Adultery, I
think it was.
Maybe the whole thing is a prank by Princeton U. students.
| Quote: | I would suspect it reflects the idea that
these were the cheapest seats (BrE "the gods") where people might be
expected to take the cheapest snacks. In the posh seats, theatre goers
would have their bonbons, comfits and crystallised fruits. In the cheap
gallery, a bag of nuts.
|
I heard a couple days ago on the radio or tv that some expensive movie
theatres in the US are going to be selling sushi at the snack bar.
I've got nothing against sushi, but when the drop it on the floor, and
the clean-up guy misses it, isn't it going to smell a lot worse than
some kernals of popcorn, or even chewing gum?
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | On 08 Sep 2005, John Dean wrote
re: peanut gallery
*Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was
to do with people throwing peanuts. I would suspect it reflects
the idea that these were the cheapest seats (BrE "the gods") where
people might be expected to take the cheapest snacks. In the posh
seats, theatre goers would have their bonbons, comfits and
crystallised fruits. In the cheap gallery, a bag of nuts.
Pure surmise: could it not be that from the stage -- with the lights
up, of course -- all one could make ouit of the gallery was row of
tiny indistinguishable faces that looked like the peanuts they were
eating?
|
Funnily enough, no. I have stood on a stage in a professional theatre
and it is surprising how much detail you can make out of the audience,
even in the top gallery and at the back of stalls. And even,
surprisingly enough, when the houselights are down.
But, yes, it was pure surmise. But based on a long tradition of
theatrical in-jokes about the different prices of the seats in various
parts of the theatre being linked to the social status of the occupants.
cf John Lennon's "rattle your jewellery" joke.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:04 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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In alt.english.usage on Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:20:23 -0400 meirman
<meirman@invalid.com> posted:
| Quote: |
Maybe you're right. Until yesterday, I thought the peanut gallery was
where children sat. Partly because I'm sure I heard it used that way
on some children's show of the 50's and partly because kids are
little, like peanuts.
|
Replying to my own post. I was right! See
http://www.howdydoodytime.com/peanut.htm
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pea1.htm
http://ask.yahoo.com/20050720.html
"So "peanut gallery" came to mean, not just the cheap seats, but the
rowdy, obnoxious folks who couldn't keep their mouths shut during a
performance. In earlier days, those on stage tried to appease the
peanut gallery so as to avoid the salty missiles. Over time,
performers have gotten a bit less accommodating."
I still find it hard to believe that Blacks in the upper balcony would
be rowdy at a theatre that had white patrons on other balconies or the
main floor. In the South something like that might have gotten them
beat up or even lynched I think. I have no problem believing they
would eat peanuts, but I don't see why that would be noticed enough to
name the area after them. There were and are plenty of poor or rowdy
white people too.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpeanut.html
"The audiences in the cheap seats, typically lower class than the
orchestra section, were the rowdiest in the theater, and in late 19th
century vaudeville, disapproving audiences did more than just heckle
the performers. In addition to the clearest view of the stage, patrons
in the upper levels also had the clearest shot, and a bad performer
would often find himself showered from the upper deck with the most
common theater snack of the time, peanuts sold by the concessionaires.
Players soon learned to play to the peanut gallery at the top of the
theater, lest they learn firsthand where the name came from."
NoSpam, where do you get your info "The "peanut gallery" had nothing
to do with peanut-throwing, it was where the perceived peanut-eaters
sat," that is the not what straightdope and the other one say.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:38 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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In alt.english.usage on Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:58:07 -0400 meirman
<meirman@invalid.com> posted:
| Quote: |
You know, I shouldn't have cited Wordnet. It was the only
"definition" on the page that went into "origins", but I'd forgotten
that I already decide that Wordnet stinks. In another ng, someone
else cited a wordnet def. that used illogical English, and a related
term in that discussion was defined rediculously by them. Adultery, I
think it was.
|
Replying to my own post, look at this definition by Wordnet, at
www.dictionary.com , of adultery:
adultery
n : extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with
marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as grounds for divorce"
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
So apparently in their view, sex itself can have intentions. And yet
otoh, it's not adultery if there is no malice or willfullness.
I'tll try not to cite Wordnet again.
| Quote: |
Maybe the whole thing is a prank by Princeton U. students.
|
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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| Quote: |
*Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was
|
What does Pace mean? Ignore, peace, a potch ??
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:15 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: |
*Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was
What does Pace mean? Ignore, peace, a potch ??
|
<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary>. Note that the pronunciation
has two syllables, not that I've ever heard it spoken.
--
Bob Lieblich
Master of the short sig |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:41 am
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
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In alt.english.usage on Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:04:30 -0400 meirman
<meirman@invalid.com> posted:
Replying to my own post again. Somehow I think the narrative is worth
reading:
http://www.howdydoodytime.com/gallery.htm
The dream of so many kids was to become a member of our Peanut
Gallery; it was also a nearly impossible dream. Buffalo Bob once
explained to me how hard it was to get tickets to the show :
"When we first started, we had a Peanut Gallery that seated maybe 40
kids and everybody got his allotment. I think I got four a day, but my
gosh I had a list as long as your arm. Everybody hit me for tickets.
Every cast member got like four a week, each client got ten a day and
there were two clients.
We had two sponsors every week so that was 20 gone right there, and
the rest of tickets went internally, like to NBC affiliates who were
coming to New York, they wanted their kids on Howdy Doody, 'cause Aunt
Minnie in Cleveland could see them in the Peanut Gallery.
The sad thing is that hardly anybody who wrote in for tickets ever got
any tickets.
====>The line above is what one would expect, but here it is in print.
The line below is interesting too.<=====
It was terrible and what happened then was we would say, Well don't
worry, bring them to my dressing room, I'll sneak them in."
Well it got to the point where we had 40 seats in the gallery,
we had 40 tickets issued and about 40 kids the cast would sneak in,
they'd be sitting on newspapers in front of the gallery.
"Some of the luckier kids eventually became famous on their own, for
example, Sigourney Weaver as the daughter of Pat Weaver, the President
of NBC, got to sit in the Peanut Gallery many times, as well as Johnny
Bench, John Ritter, Joe Namath, and a host of people that are very
famous in the business world today.
But they all had a ticket! Even the First Grandkid, Andrew Hoover,
wasn't allowed in without a ticket, as Buffalo Bob recalled. "I got a
call at the studio one day right in the middle of rehearsal and they
said, Bob come into the control room right away. Niles Trammell is on
the phone.
Well Niles Trammell was God, he was "Mr. NBC", he was the reason that
NBC was the one network for so many, many years in that era.
And I said, "Yes Mr. Trammell?" and he said, "Hey Bob, what kind of
show you got there anyway? I 'gotta get a kid in the gallery tonight
and they tell me there's no tickets and you can't get in without a
ticket."
And I said, "Well I'm sorry Mr. Trammell."
And he said, "I don't have any trouble getting people into any other
show we have, I can walk right in, I don't need tickets.What am I
'gonna do? His father's 'gonna bring him here, he's 'gonna be in the
office and watch with me, and his grandfather's 'gonna watch with him
in Washington but, how am I 'gonna get him in?"
And I said, "Mr. Trammell tonight we're doing a commercial for Welch's
Grape Juice and if you promise me that this guest of yours will like
Welch's Grape Juice, I'll just tell the fireman in charge that this
little kid is part of a commercial."
He said, "I promise he'll like Welch's Grape Juice." So I said, "Okay,
have him at my office at 5:15 we're on the air at 5:30," and he said,
"You might want to know his name"
I said, "Yes?" and he told me it was Andrew Hoover whose father would
be in his office and grandfather, President Herbert Hoover, watching
from the White House.
Thank God he liked Welch's Grape Juice!"
=====> I don't get this. Herbert Hoover hasn't been president since
1933. Was he visiting someone else in the White House in the 50's.
Eisenhower, maybe. I guess so but he doesn't say it. <=======
Some famous Peanut Gallery alumni :
Sigourney Weaver, the daughter of Pat Weaver, President of NBC, became
a major movie star, most famous for her portrayal of Ripley in the
Alien movies.
Johnny Bench, Baseball Hall Of Fame catcher/slugger.
John Ritter, the son of country super-star, Tex Ritter,
John became an actor and is best known for his role as Jack Tripper on
the sitcom, Three's Company.
Joe Namath, legendary hall of fame quarterback and panty-hose
salesman.
Andrew Hoover, grandson of President Herbert Hoover.
(Are you an Alumni of the Peanut Gallery or know someone who was?
Write to me! Thanks, Howdy.)
Billy Oltman (pictured at left) was the first place winner of the
Howdy Doody look-a-like contest.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: "Peanuts" |
|
|
On 09 Sep 2005, John Dean wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 08 Sep 2005, John Dean wrote
re: peanut gallery
*Pace* what others have said, I doubt the origin of the term was
to do with people throwing peanuts. I would suspect it reflects
the idea that these were the cheapest seats (BrE "the gods")
where people might be expected to take the cheapest snacks. In
the posh seats, theatre goers would have their bonbons, comfits
and crystallised fruits. In the cheap gallery, a bag of nuts.
Pure surmise: could it not be that from the stage -- with the
lights up, of course -- all one could make ouit of the gallery
was row of tiny indistinguishable faces that looked like the
peanuts they were eating?
Funnily enough, no. I have stood on a stage in a professional
theatre and it is surprising how much detail you can make out of
the audience, even in the top gallery and at the back of stalls.
And even, surprisingly enough, when the houselights are down.
But, yes, it was pure surmise.
|
Sorry -- I meant that *my* idea was pure surmise; it wasn't a comment
on your explanation. (Yours sounded much more likely than mine.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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