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Message |
meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Sep 2005 14:27:09 -0400 Robert
Lieblich <robert.lieblich@verizon.net> posted:
| Quote: | "artyw2@yahoo.com" wrote:
In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
What do the dictionaries say?
refugee • noun a person who has been forced to leave their country in
order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/refugee?view=uk
one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country
or power to escape danger or persecution.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=refugee
One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political
oppression, or religious persecution.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/7/R0120700.html
a person who has escaped from their own country for political,
religious or economic reasons or because of a war.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=66432&dict=CALD
a person who flees for refuge or safety, esp. to a foreign country, as
in time of political upheaval, war, etc.
http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/refugee
I'd say the usage is legitimate, even if not the primary meaning of
the word. I prefer it to "evacuee." You are free to disagree.
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Well one definition makes no reference to a foreign country, and one
says "esp.", but three explicity refer to leaving one's country, and
that's the way I've understood the term, so I'm going with three of
the dictionaries and rejecting this usage.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:34:50 GMT Dana Carpender
<dcarpend@kivanospam.net> posted:
| Quote: |
artyw2@yahoo.com wrote:
In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
I'm not sure why we're bothering to argue this at this point. I can
understand the objection to the word "loot" applied to black folks
picking stuff up, and "found" being applied to white folks picking stuff
up, but the "refugee" vs "evacuee" thing seems silly to me.
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This is what we live to do in A E U.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:45:59 GMT
ebenONE@tampabay.ARE-ARE.com.unmunge (Hactar) posted:
| Quote: | I use a wheelchair, and "differently abled" is a crock. "Differently
abled" my ass -- there's nothing I can do that can't be also done
(probably easier or neater) by a mature, stock human.
|
How do you feel about handicapped vs. disabled?
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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Guy wrote:
| Quote: |
artyw2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125944202.134280.192040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
Haven't people realized yet that today's euphamism is tomorrow's
perjorative?
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Not only that, but today's euphemism is tomorrow's pejorative.
--
Bob Lieblich (posting from AUE)
I knew it all along |
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Hactar
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In article <EpGdnRGq9IbpdIHeRVn-gg@speakeasy.net>,
<huey.callison@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hactar <ebenONE@tampabay.are-are.com.unmunge> wrote:
I use a wheelchair, and "differently abled" is a crock. "Differently
abled" my ass -- there's nothing I can do that can't be also done
(probably easier or neater) by a mature, stock human.
Plainly false! For example: I cannot hit people with my wheelchair,
because I do not have one.
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You could buy or rent one, same as I did, and over time you'd gain that
"skill".
| Quote: | I'll bet you're much better at whacking people in the shins than I am.
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Don't know that I've done that; I've missed quite a few door
holes, and run over things (chiefly my own foot, but once the dog's tail).
But I tend not to run _into_ things that can make their displeasure known.
| Quote: | And you can probably speak from a much more informed viewpoint on the
various ADA failures you've encountered than I can.
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Only because you haven't looked. Certain lawyers, and anyone with a
handicapped family member, may be better than I am.
| Quote: | I've never driven a car with hand controls.
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Neither have I.
| Quote: | ...the list goes on and on.
You can claim for yourself whatever label you like - handicapped,
differently-abled, involuntarially-rolling-resistance-improved,
...Hactar (that last one seems to work well enough) - and most people
will probably respect that, but you are differently-abled.
We all are, really.
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Fine, but the label only seems to be applied to one class of people, not
"people in general". It's useless when applied to everyone (Like "he
look-a like a man". Duh, most "he"s do.), and most handicapped reject
that label. It is others who want to use it.
--
-eben ebQenW1@EtaRmpTabYayU.rIr.OcoPm home.tampabay.rr.com/hactar
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In alt.english.usage on 5 Sep 2005 11:16:42 -0700 "artyw2@yahoo.com"
<artyw2@yahoo.com> posted:
| Quote: | In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
|
I noticed this myself. Refugee doesn't sound right to me either. I
will read the rest of the thread and perhaps comment again.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:25:53 GMT "Arfur Million"
<arfur_million@hotmail.com> posted:
| Quote: | artyw2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125944202.134280.192040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
"Refugee" is fine. According to the NewSOED:
A person driven from his or her home to seek refuge, esp. in a foreign
country,
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That's one of the problems. They're not going to another country, or
coming from one.
Yes, it only says "esp.", but I don't remember hearing the word when
Bengalis went inland because of typhoons, or during the last tsunami.
| Quote: | from war, religious persecution, political troubles, natural
disaster, etc.; a displaced person.
|
"Displaced person" is a synonym or a conclusion, more than a
definition. We would need to know what a displaced person was.
I'm not crazy about evacuee either. I'd like to see a definition of
that, but am too tired to look.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Hactar
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In article <omuph190j6frof5suu3hma20ad9noud5ui@4ax.com>,
meirman <meirman@erols.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:45:59 GMT
ebenONE@tampabay.ARE-ARE.com.unmunge (Hactar) posted:
I use a wheelchair, and "differently abled" is a crock. "Differently
abled" my ass -- there's nothing I can do that can't be also done
(probably easier or neater) by a mature, stock human.
How do you feel about handicapped vs. disabled?
|
I don't feel strongly either way.
--
-eben ebQenW1@EtaRmpTabYayU.rIr.OcoPm home.tampabay.rr.com/hactar
ARIES: The look on your face will be priceless when you find that 40lb
watermelon in your colon. Trade toothbrushes with an albino dwarf, then
give a hickey to Meryl Streep. -- Weird Al, _Your Horoscope for Today_ |
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Guy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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<artyw2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125944202.134280.192040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
|
Haven't people realized yet that today's euphamism is tomorrow's
perjorative? |
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Arfur Million
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:10 pm
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:25:53 GMT "Arfur Million"
arfur_million@hotmail.com> posted:
artyw2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125944202.134280.192040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
In another newsgroup, someone objected to the term "Refugee" to
describe those fleeing Katrina. They said that "Refugee" should only
refer to those displaced by war or other political upheavals. Is
"Refugee" the proper term or should we stick to "evacuee"?
"Refugee" is fine. According to the NewSOED:
A person driven from his or her home to seek refuge, esp. in a foreign
country,
That's one of the problems. They're not going to another country, or
coming from one.
Yes, it only says "esp.", but I don't remember hearing the word when
Bengalis went inland because of typhoons, or during the last tsunami.
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IIRC, "refugees" was used to describe the columns of people who fled
their war-torn cities on foot in WWII, but who were still in their own
country - but I take your point, it is generally used for people who
have left their country.
| Quote: |
from war, religious persecution, political troubles, natural
disaster, etc.; a displaced person.
"Displaced person" is a synonym or a conclusion, more than a
definition. We would need to know what a displaced person was.
I'm not crazy about evacuee either. I'd like to see a definition of
that, but am too tired to look.
|
The on-line dictionaries that I've looked at give a definition of
"evacuee" as "a person evacuated from a place of danger" which looks
about right for many of the displaced people, but not (I assume) those
who left of their own accord before the hurricane struck.
I get the impression that the British media use "evacuee" more often
than "refugee", perhaps for the reasons you give, but both sound OK to
my ears, despite the little problems with both words.
Regards,
Arfur |
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D.F. Manno
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:24 pm
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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In article <20050905144707.363$NK@news.newsreader.com>,
"Bob Geary" <byobgeary@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Refugee" is just so Third World, I think is the problem.
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And right now, NO and the government response to Katrina _is_ the Third
World.
--
D.F. Manno | dfm2a3l0t2@spymac.com
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. "
- H. L. Mencken |
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SoCalMike
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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Dana Carpender wrote:
| Quote: | My sister started a program for what we then called "retarded children"
at the local Y when she was in high school. The experienced special ed
teacher who acted as her sponsor/advisor said of the term
"developmentally delayed," which was then just being proposed, "We
change our terminology every time parents realize that what we're saying
is that there is something wrong with their child."
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"special needs".
ive got a special need for a pastrami and havarti sammitch, with pesto mayo. |
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Peter Boulding
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:30 pm
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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On 6 Sep 2005 01:10:47 -0700, "Arfur Million" <arfur_million@hotmail.com>
wrote in <1125994247.584516.278430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
| Quote: | I get the impression that the British media use "evacuee" more often
than "refugee"
|
Not so.
As Nick Spalding and others have already commented, "evacuee" has specific
WW2 connotations in the UK and I'm sure it couldn't be used to refer to
those who fled a city with no prearranged haven waiting for them.
Thanks to the times we live in "refugee" has acquired connotations regarding
war, famine, genocide, and so on but my bible (the Oxford) confirms that
it's the appropriate word.
--
Regards
Peter Boulding
pjb@UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk (to e-mail, remove "UNSPAM")
Fractal music & images: http://www.pboulding.co.uk/ |
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Arfur Million
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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Peter Boulding wrote:
| Quote: | On 6 Sep 2005 01:10:47 -0700, "Arfur Million" <arfur_million@hotmail.com
wrote in <1125994247.584516.278430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
I get the impression that the British media use "evacuee" more often
than "refugee"
Not so.
As Nick Spalding and others have already commented, "evacuee" has specific
WW2 connotations in the UK and I'm sure it couldn't be used to refer to
those who fled a city with no prearranged haven waiting for them.
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But this is exactly how it is being used in UK media reports, see
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4217034.stm> for an example
of one such report.
Of course, I cannot prove that "evacuee" is being used more often than
"refugee" (the BBC site has 15 hits for "evacuee" and "Katrina", and 14
for "refugeee" and "Katrina"), but it is certainly being used freely.
Regards,
Arfur |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: "Refugees"? |
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On 06 Sep 2005, Peter Boulding wrote
| Quote: | On 6 Sep 2005 01:10:47 -0700, "Arfur Million"
arfur_million@hotmail.com> wrote in
1125994247.584516.278430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>:
I get the impression that the British media use "evacuee" more
often than "refugee"
Not so.
As Nick Spalding and others have already commented, "evacuee" has
specific WW2 connotations in the UK and I'm sure it couldn't be
used to refer to those who fled a city with no prearranged haven
waiting for them.
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It does, but that didn't stop the Beeb using the term on the 7:00 a.m.
Radio 4 news this morning.
| Quote: | Thanks to the times we live in "refugee" has acquired connotations
regarding war, famine, genocide, and so on but my bible (the
Oxford) confirms that it's the appropriate word.
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I agree with you; but the BBC's mileage clearly differs.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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