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Pierre
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:22 pm
Post subject: to depend on/from |
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Hi,
I was wondering if the phase 'depend from' can somtimes be correct.
Iwas
thinking maybe to describe a capitalistic subordination, something like
:
'The local cookie factory now depends from the Swiss conglomerate
Nestlé.'
or to describe the chain of commands in a company :
'The accounting team directly depend from the chairman'.
Or would you say that 'to depend on' in better in those cases.
Thanks.
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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"Pierre" <pierreh@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125660124.659425.16520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I was wondering if the phase 'depend from' can somtimes be correct.
. . .
'The local cookie factory now depends from the Swiss conglomerate
Nestlé.'
.. . .
Or would you say that 'to depend on' in better in those cases.
|
In a word, no.
The modern verb depend demonstrates its root
in the latin verb pendere = hang. Its commonest
contemporary meaning is thus basically metaphorical
and not literal. "Babies depend on adults" does not
denote babes in arms as distinct from babies in
bassinets etc. The pattern of usage tells us depend
on is normal (metaphorical but common) and depend from
is exceptional (correctly used only when literal, thus
also archaic.)
The factory example is another type of metaphor, because the
relationship there described is ownership viz. a different
sort of relationship than that between child and adult.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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"Pierre" <pierreh@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125660124.659425.16520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I was wondering if the phase 'depend from' can sometimes be correct.
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Hardly. It isn't English idiom except in (rare) literal senses.
Adrian
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Pierre
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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Adrian Bailey a écrit :
| Quote: |
Hardly. It isn't English idiom except in (rare) literal senses.
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So, in those two sentences, you'd say "depend on" is absolutely correct?
Besides, could you give me a simple example where "depend from" can be
used in a literal sense please? Do you mean "to depend a shirt from the
coat-hanger"?
Thanks.
(and sorry for the two spelling mistakes in my first post)
--
Pierre |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:48 pm
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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Pierre spake thusly:
| Quote: | Adrian Bailey a écrit :
Hardly. It isn't English idiom except in (rare) literal senses.
So, in those two sentences, you'd say "depend on" is absolutely correct?
|
In both cases, it would be correct if that's what you mean, but I
suspect that it isn't. I think you mean that the accounting team
"report to", or "are responsible to" the Chairman, and that the
cookie factory is a subsidiary of Nestle. "Depend on" means that one
entity needs another entity. What you wrote means that the
accounting team need the Chairman, and that the factory needs Nestle
but doesn't tell you anything about their positions in the
organisation.
| Quote: | Besides, could you give me a simple example where "depend from" can be
used in a literal sense please? Do you mean "to depend a shirt from the
coat-hanger"?
|
No. It's never used in ordinary speech. You are likely to find that
only people who hang around in newsgroups like this will recognise
the old form. You certainly shouldn't use it in normal English - its
only probable use nowadays would be in very formal and old fashioned
writing.
Here's one I found online in a patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4927347.html
A pair of hydraulic cylinders 110 depend from diametrically opposed
edges of plate 106 and have actuator rods 112 coupled to top plate
88.
Nearly all the examples of "depend from" found online are either
mistakes, or part of another construct, such as "this depends from
where the part was ordered".
--
David
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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"Pierre" <s931615@student.ulg.ac.be> wrote in message
news:43184541.2DC416C8@student.ulg.ac.be...
| Quote: | Besides, could you give me a simple example where "depend from" can be
used in a literal sense please? Do you mean "to depend a shirt from the
coat-hanger"?
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Yes . . .
When used literally, verb depend = verb hang (in its intransitive
form only). This usage is nowadays archaic.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Steve Howarth
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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"Pierre" <pierreh@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125660124.659425.16520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
I was wondering if the phase 'depend from' can somtimes be correct.
Iwas
thinking maybe to describe a capitalistic subordination, something like
:
'The local cookie factory now depends from the Swiss conglomerate
Nestlé.'
or to describe the chain of commands in a company :
'The accounting team directly depend from the chairman'.
Or would you say that 'to depend on' in better in those cases.
Thanks.
It looks to me like someone has translated too literally (and incorrectly)
from French into English. The French "dependre de" is best translated as
"to depend on" or "to be dependent on". Maybe the trouble stems from the
more common meaning of "de" as "from". The sentence "The local cookie
factory is now dependent on the Swiss conglomerate Nestle" looks correct to
me, and gives the subordination that is required.
I stand to be corrected on this, of course.
Steve Howarth |
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mike
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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Steve Howarth wrote:
| Quote: | "Pierre" <pierreh@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125660124.659425.16520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
I was wondering if the phase 'depend from' can somtimes be correct.
Iwas
thinking maybe to describe a capitalistic subordination, something like
:
'The local cookie factory now depends from the Swiss conglomerate
Nestlé.'
or to describe the chain of commands in a company :
'The accounting team directly depend from the chairman'.
Or would you say that 'to depend on' in better in those cases.
Thanks.
It looks to me like someone has translated too literally (and incorrectly)
from French into English. The French "dependre de" is best translated as
"to depend on" or "to be dependent on". Maybe the trouble stems from the
more common meaning of "de" as "from". The sentence "The local cookie
factory is now dependent on the Swiss conglomerate Nestle" looks correct to
me, and gives the subordination that is required.
I stand to be corrected on this, of course.
Steve Howarth
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Mary bought her grandchild's diapers from Walmart and her husband's
depends from Walgreen's.
:) |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:45 pm
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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Steve Howarth spake thusly:
| Quote: | It looks to me like someone has translated too literally (and incorrectly)
from French into English. The French "dependre de" is best translated as
"to depend on" or "to be dependent on". Maybe the trouble stems from the
more common meaning of "de" as "from". The sentence "The local cookie
factory is now dependent on the Swiss conglomerate Nestle" looks correct to
me, and gives the subordination that is required.
I stand to be corrected on this, of course.
|
That's possible. If it's the case, it's worth repeating that the
preposition to be used with any specific verb in another European
language can never be translated or guessed. You have to learn them,
as I learned that "dependre" takes "de".
--
David
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Pierre
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:18 am
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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Steve Howarth a écrit :
| Quote: | It looks to me like someone has translated too literally (and incorrectly)
from French into English. The French "dependre de" is best translated as
"to depend on" or "to be dependent on".
|
I knew that, but I thought there was a noticeable difference in meaning
between, for instance, 'The number of ice creams sold depends on the
weather' and the two sentences I used in my first post. In fact, the
verb 'dépendre' in French can be used with the rough meaning of 'being a
dependency of' (like 'Guadeloupe is a dependency of France'). So in
French you could for instance say 'La police dépend directement du
maire.', which I thought could be literally translated as 'The police
depend directly on/from the mayor.' It seems that it's not true. I like
the translation proposed in a previous post : 'The police reports
directly to the mayor.' I'll use that in the future.
| Quote: | Maybe the trouble stems from the
more common meaning of "de" as "from". The sentence "The local cookie
factory is now dependent on the Swiss conglomerate Nestle" looks correct to
me, and gives the subordination that is required.
|
It's been a long time since I thought every 'de' could be translated by
'from'.  )
Thanks again. |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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Pierre wrote:
| Quote: |
snip
[...] I like
the translation proposed in a previous post : 'The police reports
directly to the mayor.' I'll use that in the future.
|
The noun "police" (as opposed to "policeman" &c.) is construed as
plural, so you should say either "The police report ..." or e.g. "The
police department reports ...."
--
Odysseus |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:57 am
Post subject: Re: to depend on/from |
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In alt.english.usage on Sat, 03 Sep 2005 08:45:36 GMT the Omrud
<usenet.omrud@gmail.com> posted:
| Quote: | Steve Howarth spake thusly:
It looks to me like someone has translated too literally (and incorrectly)
from French into English. The French "dependre de" is best translated as
"to depend on" or "to be dependent on". Maybe the trouble stems from the
more common meaning of "de" as "from". The sentence "The local cookie
factory is now dependent on the Swiss conglomerate Nestle" looks correct to
me, and gives the subordination that is required.
I stand to be corrected on this, of course.
That's possible. If it's the case, it's worth repeating that the
preposition to be used with any specific verb in another European
language can never be translated or guessed. You have to learn them,
as I learned that "dependre" takes "de".
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Schaeffer esta la mejor quando se toma mas de una.
I already knew the rule when I heard the radio commercials, but they
drove it home much better than any book-learnin'. With numbers, when
"mas" is used with one, "de" is used in Spanish. When it's used with
other numbers, "que" is used.
Vaso tras vaso, es calidad.
Como Schaeffer no hay ninguna.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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