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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:29:23 GMT, Michael DeBusk
<m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:01:54 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
Why not just put a sign on the button that says "Press Here To Open
Door"?
Because nobody looks at the button. They look at the door, if they're
looking at anything at all.
It's a door. We all know doors. We learned how they work when we were
tiny and we expect them to work that way consistently. A door is one of
those things we do without thinking about it. The door to which I'm
referring, however, does not work that way. It's locked, and slapping
the big metal button both unlocks and opens it. So people expect one
thing and get another; sometimes they get a faceful of door.
If they're not looking at the door, which is right in front of them,
they aren't going to look at the wall to the right in expectation of a
button. So a sign on the button would be ignored.
Revising an awkward instruction to a slightly less awkward
instruction is not the route to go.
The instruction is not awkward at all.
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I think it *is* awkward. Too much information. The fewer words
(within reason), the better. What difference does it make to the
pusher if the button is square? Or metal? If there's one button on
the wall, tell 'em to push the button. Since there are two walls
involved, the instructions might say "Wall to your right", but there
would have to be several buttons before shape and material become
necessary to know.
BTW, our are not really "buttons". They are plates about 6" to 8" on
a side. They act like a button, though.
The person is either going to figure out that a button must be pushed,
or not figure it out and try to force the door. They aren't going to
figure it out any easier if they know the shape and material of the
button, especially if the button is labeled "Push to Open".
We have doors like that in hospitals here. It's hard to exactly
remember what they're like, but I seem to recall the button itself is
a large metal square with the words "Push to Open" in red letters, and
the letters are like grooves in the metal that are filled in with red
paint.
There is a sign on the door itself, but I can't remember the wording.
The ER (Casualty) doors are not like that, though. Since I recently
went in the hospital through ER, I do remember this. There's no door
from triage to the ER area, but there's a door from the waiting room
to the ER area. That door has to be released from a desk. You can't
just go directly to the ER area unless they want you to.
The door I can remember that meets your description is into the OB
area. The admitting button can be pushed by an aide pushing a wheel
chair or stretcher. It's large enough so that it can be pushed with
a shoulder or elbow if the hands are in use elsewhere.
| Quote: | When people do manage to get
enough cognition together to read it, they immediately know what to do.
My question was not about how useful the instructions are, but whether
or not "metal" and "big" are coordinate or cumulative in relationship
with one another and "button".
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Wrong tree. Barking up that one may be an English usage question, but
it's not a practical consideration for what you describe.
| Quote: | If the folks here think I'd be more clear if I didn't give a "back
story" to my queries, I can certainly stop.
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--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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Michael DeBusk spake thusly:
| Quote: | On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:11:56 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree that "square metal" is better. But are there lots of
buttons on the right? If not, then I would lose the adjectives.
I'd agree if not for the fact that it's in the Emergency Department.
People there really are in need of more thorough description. Even with
the sign in place, we still have to explain things sometimes.
George Miller pointed out that we can track seven, plus or minus two,
pieces of information, depending on our level of stress. in the ER,
it's one, plus or minus two.
obAUE, "hit" in UK English implies a forceful action - we would say
"press".
But it *does* require a forceful action. It's about four inches square
and built to be hit. If you only press it, it won't understand you. 
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OK, then the UK English for that is "press firmly". "Hit" is too
strong a word for operating a button, unless you need to take a swing
at it.
--
David
=====
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 02:26:27 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I think it *is* awkward. Too much information. The fewer words
(within reason), the better.
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Ordinarily true. In this case, though, a bit more detail can make a
positive difference. Details, even if they're unneeded, give one a
sense of control.
| Quote: | BTW, our are not really "buttons". They are plates about 6" to 8"
on a side. They act like a button, though.
|
That's the case here too. About 4", though.
| Quote: | The ER (Casualty) doors are not like that, though. Since I recently
went in the hospital through ER, I do remember this. There's no
door from triage to the ER area, but there's a door from the waiting
room to the ER area. That door has to be released from a desk. You
can't just go directly to the ER area unless they want you to.
|
Identical to ours, except the triage room does connect to the ER area.
We definitely want two ways out.
| Quote: | My question was not about how useful the instructions are, but
whether or not "metal" and "big" are coordinate or cumulative in
relationship with one another and "button".
Wrong tree. Barking up that one may be an English usage question, but
it's not a practical consideration for what you describe.
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Tony, I can't be any more clear than this: I DON'T CARE about a
practical consideration. THE SIGN DOES WHAT WE WANT IT TO DO. I
therefore give not a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about that.
It's NOT the wrong tree; it's the tree I chose, and by definition
cannot be wrong. My question was about the order of adjectives in a
given sentence. Full stop.
OK... try this one. Perhaps this is how I should have posted it:
I saw a sign today that referred to a "metal big button", and my
internal response ws that it should be a "big metal button". Then I
wondered why it mattered to me. Are their rules about the order in
which we can place adjectives? If so, what are they?
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet?
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:22:35 +0100, John Dean
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I certainly find some constructions "feel" right and some don't.
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Same here.
| Quote: | Here's a page with what look, to me, like good suggestions about
adjectival order:
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This is extremely interesting. Thanks.
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 22:01:55 -0400, Don Phillipson
<d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Well, if this is really true (and if the hospital cannot
afford automatic doors that open by themselves when
approached)
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We don't want this particular door to open whenever approached. There
are times when we do want a person to have to stop if they aren't
paying close attention. (It gives us a chance to catch them.)
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:52:22 GMT, Michael DeBusk
<m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The ER (Casualty) doors are not like that, though. Since I recently
went in the hospital through ER, I do remember this. There's no
door from triage to the ER area, but there's a door from the waiting
room to the ER area. That door has to be released from a desk. You
can't just go directly to the ER area unless they want you to.
Identical to ours, except the triage room does connect to the ER area.
We definitely want two ways out.
|
My phrasing was ambiguous. The triage area does connect to ER, but
there is no door that has to be opened. The triage area is just an
extension of the ER area and connected to the ER with a short, open,
hallway. The hallway exists because it's an area where gurneys or
wheelchairs can be placed for a brief time if there is no free cubicle
(made up of hanging curtains) available.
A patient with a non-serious (relatively) problem is sent to the
waiting room. A patient that has to be watched, but is not in a
critical condition, is "stored" in the hallway. If cubicles are free,
all patients are sent directly to the ER area.
There are actually two triage areas in the hospital that I go to if I
need to. There is a small room where all patients go for the first
assessment if they are non-critical. There is a larger triage area
where patients who are more critical are immediately examined.
There is functionally a third triage area since all patients are at
least glanced at as they come in the door. The walking wounded are
sent to the waiting room until the triage office and nurse are free.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:33:46 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | A patient with a non-serious (relatively) problem is sent to the
waiting room.
|
Fluorescent Light Therapy. It's remarkable, that stuff... cures a lot
of people so completely that they get up and walk out, even though they
had a "horrible emergency" when they came in.
| Quote: | There are actually two triage areas in the hospital that I go to if
I need to.
|
It's odd that anyone who doesn't work there knows the ER so well. Do
you get beat up a lot, or do you have some sort of "chronic with acute
exacerbations" health issue? (None of my business; just curious.)
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:49 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:51:46 GMT, Michael DeBusk
<m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:33:46 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
A patient with a non-serious (relatively) problem is sent to the
waiting room.
Fluorescent Light Therapy. It's remarkable, that stuff... cures a lot
of people so completely that they get up and walk out, even though they
had a "horrible emergency" when they came in.
There are actually two triage areas in the hospital that I go to if
I need to.
It's odd that anyone who doesn't work there knows the ER so well. Do
you get beat up a lot, or do you have some sort of "chronic with acute
exacerbations" health issue? (None of my business; just curious.)
|
I spent several decades selling medical equipment and surgical
instruments. I've set up ERs with all of their instruments and much
of their equipment when new hospitals were built, though most of my
business was in the OR. I spent five days of the week for years in
the Operating Rooms of hospitals.
Dunno your age, but I've probably put on greens almost as many times
as you have. I was calling on hospitals when they were re-using
surgical gloves and using glass syringes. I've sold wire mesh ether
masks for OB.
Funny (maybe to some) story. I used to call on a small Catholic
hospital in Southern Indiana. One day I happened to pass a small room
where a nun was testing surgical gloves on a machine that puffed air
into the glove to make sure the glove was not perforated. If the
glove was good, she'd put some powder in it and drop it into a hamper
to be re-packaged for surgery.
Knowing that the hospital had converted to disposable surgical gloves
several years before this, I asked the Administrator about this. He
said the Sister had been with the hospital for 40 years, was slightly
dotty, and would be terribly distraught if she lost her job. So, they
sent used gloves down to her to be checked. All of the gloves she
checked were then disposed of. It was a kind gesture that made a
person feel needed.
After years in the business, you notice things when you go in a
hospital. The last time I was stitched up in ER, I named the
instruments on the tray by their catalog names just to get my mind off
of the pain. I can't stand watching medical shows on television where
there's surgery because they do things I know they don't do in real
hospitals. Wife is the same. She was an Operating Room nurse when we
started dating, and a working BSN today (although in public health,
now).
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:28 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gl4ch1teo5jvhdd83edbg63f1ap0ouaov0@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:51:46 GMT, Michael DeBusk
m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:33:46 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
A patient with a non-serious (relatively) problem is sent to the
waiting room.
Fluorescent Light Therapy. It's remarkable, that stuff... cures a lot
of people so completely that they get up and walk out, even though they
had a "horrible emergency" when they came in.
There are actually two triage areas in the hospital that I go to if
I need to.
It's odd that anyone who doesn't work there knows the ER so well. Do
you get beat up a lot, or do you have some sort of "chronic with acute
exacerbations" health issue? (None of my business; just curious.)
I spent several decades selling medical equipment and surgical
instruments. I've set up ERs with all of their instruments and much
of their equipment when new hospitals were built, though most of my
business was in the OR. I spent five days of the week for years in
the Operating Rooms of hospitals.
She was an Operating Room nurse when we
started dating, and a working BSN today (although in public health,
now).
|
Glad you answered Michael so completely. I had a question about how you
knew about 2 triage areas in one hospital. I didn't think you intended to
give the impression that you go to both of them, and I didn't think you had
gone to the hospital lately as an emergency admission.
What is a BSN? She had to have been an RN as an Operating Room nurse,
right?
The nun's story. . .cute. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:28:09 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <durkinpa@nothome.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gl4ch1teo5jvhdd83edbg63f1ap0ouaov0@4ax.com...
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:51:46 GMT, Michael DeBusk
m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:33:46 GMT, Tony Cooper
tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
A patient with a non-serious (relatively) problem is sent to the
waiting room.
Fluorescent Light Therapy. It's remarkable, that stuff... cures a lot
of people so completely that they get up and walk out, even though they
had a "horrible emergency" when they came in.
There are actually two triage areas in the hospital that I go to if
I need to.
It's odd that anyone who doesn't work there knows the ER so well. Do
you get beat up a lot, or do you have some sort of "chronic with acute
exacerbations" health issue? (None of my business; just curious.)
I spent several decades selling medical equipment and surgical
instruments. I've set up ERs with all of their instruments and much
of their equipment when new hospitals were built, though most of my
business was in the OR. I spent five days of the week for years in
the Operating Rooms of hospitals.
She was an Operating Room nurse when we
started dating, and a working BSN today (although in public health,
now).
Glad you answered Michael so completely. I had a question about how you
knew about 2 triage areas in one hospital. I didn't think you intended to
give the impression that you go to both of them, and I didn't think you had
gone to the hospital lately as an emergency admission.
|
In fact, I have. Just a month or so ago I went to the ER with extreme
stomach distress. They ended up admitting me and keeping me for a
week. Diagnoses: diverticulitis. Kept me on IV drip the whole week
bringing the white count back to the right numbers.
| Quote: | What is a BSN? She had to have been an RN as an Operating Room nurse,
right?
|
An RN is a Registered Nurse, and usually a graduate of a three-year
nursing program at a hospital. A BSN is a Bachelor of Science,
Nursing, and usually a graduate of a university that is affiliated
with a hospital and takes a four-year program.
In my wife's case, she went the RN route. When our kids graduated
from high school, she went back to college and earned her Bachelor
degree. Unfortunately, it's not a matter of just taking one more
year. Her RN credits did not all transfer and some courses were
required that were not required in the 50s. It took her about 2.5
years, but she didn't take a full load any semester.
In the OR today, you will not find many RNs. You'll find more
Surgical Technicians than RNs. The RN is trained in all areas of
nursing, and the OR Tech is trained just in the surgical aspects.
| Quote: | The nun's story. . .cute.
|
Chaucer's is better known.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:49:52 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I spent several decades selling medical equipment and surgical
instruments. I've set up ERs with all of their instruments and much
of their equipment when new hospitals were built
|
That explains how well you know hospitals. :)
I'm 39, and have been working in and around hospitals for about half
that.
| Quote: | I've probably put on greens almost as many times as you have.
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Probably many more times. I rarely have time to dress out.
| Quote: | I've sold wire mesh ether masks for OB.
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Heh... I've never even seen medical-grade ether. :)
| Quote: | Funny (maybe to some) story.
|
I think that's a GREAT story! We have a housekeeper like your nun.
She's developing dementia and keeps forgetting stuff, but her manager
has said that as long as he's able to cover her work she'll have a job.
| Quote: | I can't stand watching medical shows on television where there's
surgery because they do things I know they don't do in real
hospitals. Wife is the same.
|
Same here. I've watched "ER" maybe four times and got annoyed each
time. I watched "MacGyver" (sic) a couple of times, too, and couldn't
bear it any more. He treated cyanide poisoning with a bit of sodium
nitrate from a film lab one of those times, and the other time he built
a defibrillator with an extension cord and a pair of brass
candlesticks. I couldn't believe my eyes.
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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