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Message |
Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:21 pm
Post subject: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet?
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ray o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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"Michael DeBusk" <m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:BHyQe.3620$9i4.1842@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
|
As I read it I changed it to square metal, So I guess I agree with you. |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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"Michael DeBusk" <m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote...
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
|
If there are a lot of square buttons on the right, and only one is
metal, then I'd say they hit it on the button.
Matti
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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Michael DeBusk spake thusly:
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
|
I agree that "square metal" is better. But are there lots of buttons
on the right? If not, then I would lose the adjectives.
So, I would change to: "To open door, hit button on right".
obAUE, "hit" in UK English implies a forceful action - we would say
"press".
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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In message <BHyQe.3620$9i4.1842@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Michael DeBusk <m_debusk@despammed.com> writes
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
|
Why do you have to press a button to open an 'automatic' door?
An automatic door opens automatically - you don't have to do anything.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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In article news:<BHyQe.3620$9i4.1842@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Michael DeBusk wrote:
| Quote: | TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
|
To me "hit metal square button" suggests that there must be a large number
of square buttons, but that only one is metal.
I imagine that there is actually only one button, in fact, and this being
so I would also be "bugged" by it.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:21:05 GMT, Michael DeBusk
<m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
|
Why not just put a sign on the button that says "Press Here To Open
Door"?
Revising an awkward instruction to a slightly less awkward instruction
is not the route to go.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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Michael DeBusk wrote:
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
|
I would go with "square metal".
I doubt we will ever get universal agreement on the order in which
adjectives should be presented when there is more than one modifying a
noun, but I certainly find some constructions "feel" right and some
don't.
Here's a page with what look, to me, like good suggestions about
adjectival order:
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/adjectives.htm
They suggest an order:
The categories in the following table can be described as follows:
Determiners - articles and other limiters. See Determiners
Observation - postdeterminers and limiter adjectives (e.g., a real hero,
a perfect idiot) and adjectives subject to subjective measure (e.g.,
beautiful, interesting)
Size and Shape - adjectives subject to objective measure (e.g., wealthy,
large, round)
Age - adjectives denoting age (e.g., young, old, new, ancient)
Color - adjectives denoting color (e.g., red, black, pale)
Origin - denominal adjectives denoting source of noun (e.g., French,
American, Canadian)
Material - denominal adjectives denoting what something is made of
(e.g., woolen, metallic, wooden)
Qualifier - final limiter, often regarded as part of the noun (e.g.,
rocking chair, hunting cabin, passenger car, book cover)
So a metal, old, square small button should grate (it does with me)
where a small, square, old, metal button should sound OK.
No doubt there are many other pages on-line with similar, though
significantly different, suggestions.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0756h15ec7g4sl0r64kkkqujbog03tbkiu@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:21:05 GMT, Michael DeBusk
m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
Why not just put a sign on the button that says "Press Here To Open
Door"?
Revising an awkward instruction to a slightly less awkward instruction
is not the route to go.
Well, but. They are in a hurry and are rushing to the door. That is where |
their first and primary attention is fixed, so that is where the sign must
go. In large, RED, block letters. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:24:40 GMT, "Pat Durkin" <durkinpa@nothome.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0756h15ec7g4sl0r64kkkqujbog03tbkiu@4ax.com...
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:21:05 GMT, Michael DeBusk
m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote:
We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
Why not just put a sign on the button that says "Press Here To Open
Door"?
Revising an awkward instruction to a slightly less awkward instruction
is not the route to go.
Well, but. They are in a hurry and are rushing to the door. That is where
their first and primary attention is fixed, so that is where the sign must
go. In large, RED, block letters.
|
There are many such doors in the hospitals here. The button is
usually on the wall to the right of the door. Your point is good,
though, so I'd put the sign "Press Here to Open Door" on the button,
and another sign on the door itself that says "Push Button on wall to
open door" with an arrow pointing to the wall where the button is.
As long as the button is labeled, I don't think you need to describe
the shape or material of the button. Big letters and short
instructions are better.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:20 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:11:56 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I agree that "square metal" is better. But are there lots of
buttons on the right? If not, then I would lose the adjectives.
|
I'd agree if not for the fact that it's in the Emergency Department.
People there really are in need of more thorough description. Even with
the sign in place, we still have to explain things sometimes.
George Miller pointed out that we can track seven, plus or minus two,
pieces of information, depending on our level of stress. in the ER,
it's one, plus or minus two.
| Quote: | obAUE, "hit" in UK English implies a forceful action - we would say
"press".
|
But it *does* require a forceful action. It's about four inches square
and built to be hit. If you only press it, it won't understand you. :)
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:01:54 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Why not just put a sign on the button that says "Press Here To Open
Door"?
|
Because nobody looks at the button. They look at the door, if they're
looking at anything at all.
It's a door. We all know doors. We learned how they work when we were
tiny and we expect them to work that way consistently. A door is one of
those things we do without thinking about it. The door to which I'm
referring, however, does not work that way. It's locked, and slapping
the big metal button both unlocks and opens it. So people expect one
thing and get another; sometimes they get a faceful of door.
If they're not looking at the door, which is right in front of them,
they aren't going to look at the wall to the right in expectation of a
button. So a sign on the button would be ignored.
| Quote: | Revising an awkward instruction to a slightly less awkward
instruction is not the route to go.
|
The instruction is not awkward at all. When people do manage to get
enough cognition together to read it, they immediately know what to do.
My question was not about how useful the instructions are, but whether
or not "metal" and "big" are coordinate or cumulative in relationship
with one another and "button".
If the folks here think I'd be more clear if I didn't give a "back
story" to my queries, I can certainly stop.
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:24:40 GMT, Pat Durkin <durkinpa@nothome.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Well, but. They are in a hurry and are rushing to the door. That is
where their first and primary attention is fixed, so that is where
the sign must go. In large, RED, block letters.
|
I agree with you about the size and color, and I don't think the
manager of the ER would go for it. It would be unattractive. You'd be
surprised at how important it is to the administrators of a hospital
that the building be as visually appealing as it can reasonably be.
Incidentally, it isn't the hurry that's the issue. They aren't paying
attention to the door, either, at least until they get close to it and
find they can't get through. They're paying attention to the worried
voice in their heads, and looking at very little as a result. Big red
letters (red big letters? <g>) would interrupt that because they'd be
out of place, I think. Still, I doubt the manager would go for it.
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:22 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:21:05 GMT Michael DeBusk
<m_debusk@despammed.com> posted:
| Quote: | We have many automatic doors at the hospital; they make it much easier
to get stretchers through. One of them, though, is also used by
visitors, and most of them have more on their minds than how the hell
to open the door. The walk up to it and push it and it won't open, and
they get frustrated. They don't know they have to hit the big button.
In an attempt to allay that, one of the clerks posted a sign on the
door. Now, they get frustrated, look at the door, see the sign, say
"oh," hit the button, and go through.
The sign says:
TO OPEN DOOR, HIT METAL SQUARE BUTTON ON RIGHT
It seems syntactically correct. The button is metal; the button is
square. The adjectives are apparently coordinate. But it BUGS me. I
feel like it should be a square metal button, not a metal square one.
|
When I read it, I thought "square metal button" would be better,
before I saw your question. Don't know why, except that that's the
way things are done in the US.
| Quote: | What do you think? Are they cumulative after all?
|
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
My English in this reply is colloquial, and may not always use full sentences.
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Coordinate or cumulative? |
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"Michael DeBusk" <m_debusk@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:7%LQe.3886$9i4.3577@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | Why not just put a sign on the button that says "Press Here To Open
Door"?
Because nobody looks at the button. They look at the door, if they're
looking at anything at all.
|
Well, if this is really true (and if the hospital cannot
afford automatic doors that open by themselves when
approached) the cheapest solution would be to paint
on the door a big red arrow reaching as far as the
button (arrowhead.) This can be done regardless
of whether the door is wood, metal, glass etc.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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