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FRAN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:27 am
Post subject: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of "democracy",
and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
Comments?
Fran
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:36 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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On 16 Aug 2005, FRAN wrote
| Quote: | Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought
from him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to
say, about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and
agency, the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply
inadequate, but I eventually settled on "the government doing what
most people want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and
Premier were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the
site of the seat of national government) I supposed this was
closest to what the teacher had in mind.
Comments?
|
How about "A system in which the general population decides who governs
them"?
Damn: 11 words.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Idiom: Mixture of Canadian and British
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van |
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nancy13g
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:37 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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FRAN wrote:
"Of the people, by the people, and for the people."
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Martin Ambuhl
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:36 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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FRAN wrote:
| Quote: | Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of "democracy",
and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
|
All of the things you mention are contested by large numbers of thinkers
about democratic theory. "Democracy" is largely a noise. The "right"
answer to this question depends on the ideology of the teacher...
| Quote: | Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
|
I think not. The teacher is emphasizing the institutional mechanisms of
some country. This is a very narrow way of doing political thinking.
It doesn't even work.
Consider a Burke, for example. His version of democracy isn't even
representational. He made it clear that the voters had no reason for
him as their MP to represent their desires: they were electing him for
his ability to discern the public interest. His is democracy as being
"for the people," but not "of the people" or "by the people."
The emphasis on institutional mechanisms often takes the form of
"constitutionalism." Constitutionalism is strangely akin to the Legalist
school in erd century China. The attempt is to find mechanisms of
government that would allow the state to function well (supposedly in
the people's interests) even if people of only ordinary talent were
involved. In China this led to absolutist states; in the traditions of
Europeans the emphasis on representation is supposed to keep that from
happening. Burke's version (popular with many Tories and US
Republicans) tries to restore the personalistic government that
constitutionalism tries to do away with.
If you want an answer likely to work, a modern democracy is
representational, in which delegates are expected to represent the will
of the people; the choice of delegates comes from competitive elections
(to undercut the claims of single-party states to represent the general
will); those elections must be free and fair, so the people, not some
other body like the military or courts answering to no one, make an
unforced choice; the representative bodies must have real power, and
not a rubber stamp for the Bush^W party in control of the executive; the
legislative, executive, and judicial powers[1] must be clearly demarked;
civil rights for citizens must be guaranteed; laws must be applied
without respect for social, economic, or social position.
Everything in this list is debatable. They are debatable
a) with regard to desirability
b) with regard to what institutional forms they can take
and
c) with regard to their actually being instanced in any actually
existing state.
Some people will claim some items on this list to be unimportant for a
definition of modern democracy; other people will find glaring holes.
Even as a translation from the Greek meaning "rule by the people," which
does not unambiguously require *anything* on the above list, there are
serious problems. Who are the people? Many of the debates which are
still continuing even in advanced industrial democracies involve
restricting the meaning of "the people." And do we really mean "rule by
the people," or do we mean "rule by some fraction of the people." Notice
that that fraction need not -- even absent hegemonic centers of power in
the society -- be a majority. Super-majority rules are rules that give
minorities the right to rule over majorities, for example. And even if
majorities rule, is that democracy? If majority rule is a good thing
and part of democracy, can representative institutions actually embody it?
Remember that almost every "acceptable" answer to "what is democracy?"
will involve the liberal theories which characterize most classical
theorists of democracy. Even they recognized a possible conflict
between liberty and democracy. Some modern thinkers claim this not to
be true: that democratic procedure is incompatable with persecution or
suppression of minorities. That is a hard case to make, though. If a
list like the one above is considered constitutive of democracy, the
case can be made, but it is not clear that those items *are*
constitutive of democracy.
[1] This is arbitrary. Many western countries, for example, have an
ombudsman just as ancient China had "censors" who acted as watchdogs
over the other powers. The civil service, imported from China where a
fifth high executive oversaw the examination system, in effect forms a
branch of government. |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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In alt.english.usage on 16 Aug 2005 14:27:22 -0700 "FRAN"
<fran_beta@hotmail.com> posted:
| Quote: | Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of "democracy",
and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
Comments?
|
I think Max should do his own homework. You can suggest things for
him to read, and that's as far as you should go.
I don't want to be in a relationship with a codependant teenager, so
I'm not going to suggest an answer.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:37 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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Fran Barlow:
| Quote: | Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought
from him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
|
Harvey Van Sickle:
| Quote: | How about "A system in which the general population decides who governs
them"?
Damn: 11 words.
|
Well, if you just want to get it down to 10, lose the pompous "in which":
* A system where the general population decides who governs them.
In this context I don't think the grammatical form of the answer matters
anyway, so we can drop the first part anyway:
* The general population decides who governs them
We can further shorten reduce the letter count by the unusual word choice
"population":
* The general public decides who governs them
And if we need further brevity, we can lose a redundant adjective:
* The public decides who governs them
I think the expected answer was likely to include the word "vote" or "elect",
though. And hey, we can make it even shorter:
* The public elects their government
Substituting the passive allows a still shorter version that also might be
taken as a more suitable grammatical form:
* Government elected by the public
THAT oughta fit!
I observe in passing that all of these examples except the last one
use "population" or "public" as the subject of a singular verb, and
the antecedent of a grammatically plural pronoun. Nothing wrong with
that, of course.
--
Mark Brader | "...the government is simply a bunch of people we've
Toronto | hired to protect ourselves from thieves and murderers
msb@vex.net | and rapists and other governments..." -- Bill Stewart
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:46 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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FRAN wrote:
| Quote: | Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
Comments?
|
Government of the people, by the people, for the people?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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FRAN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:53 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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Mark Brader wrote:
| Quote: | Fran Barlow:
Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought
from him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
Harvey Van Sickle:
How about "A system in which the general population decides who governs
them"?
Damn: 11 words.
Well, if you just want to get it down to 10, lose the pompous "in which":
* A system where the general population decides who governs them.
In this context I don't think the grammatical form of the answer matters
anyway, so we can drop the first part anyway:
* The general population decides who governs them
We can further shorten reduce the letter count by the unusual word choice
"population":
* The general public decides who governs them
And if we need further brevity, we can lose a redundant adjective:
* The public decides who governs them
|
or
* the public designs the rules
* the public decides how they are ruled
| Quote: | I think the expected answer was likely to include the word "vote" or "elect",
though. And hey, we can make it even shorter:
* The public elects their government
Substituting the passive allows a still shorter version that also might be
taken as a more suitable grammatical form:
* Government elected by the public
|
or perhaps "chosen by"
And following your attempt to minimise characters and words ...
* rule by the people
or even
* popular rule
It's very algebraic, because it treats as secondary what is meant by
"the people" (or "popular") (and above "the public") when these
questions go to the heart of democracy. It also passes over the setting
of frontiers between the purview of society and the claims of
individuals *against* what may well be popular mandate.
Fran
| Quote: | THAT oughta fit!
I observe in passing that all of these examples except the last one
use "population" or "public" as the subject of a singular verb, and
the antecedent of a grammatically plural pronoun. Nothing wrong with
that, of course.
--
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Nothing at all
| Quote: | Mark Brader | "...the government is simply a bunch of people we've
Toronto | hired to protect ourselves from thieves and murderers
msb@vex.net | and rapists and other governments..." -- Bill Stewart
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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FRAN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on 16 Aug 2005 14:27:22 -0700 "FRAN"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> posted:
Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of "democracy",
and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
Comments?
I think Max should do his own homework. You can suggest things for
him to read, and that's as far as you should go.
|
I don't think I can object to your observation here on principle, but
given the order of answer demanded (two and a bit short lines) and the
very well composed post of Mr Ambuhl above, which goes far beyond
anything I could reasonably expect Max to deduce from independent
research, still less encapsulate in that space, I did feel inclined to
be more proactive.
We did have a discussion about how our household establishes and
enforces rules, concluding that it was *not* a democracy after all,
since I was exercising government functions without being obliged to
respect his wishes, and then we eventually settled on the form of words
above.
I realise that I said above "I settled on ..." and that is formally
true, though it was a proposal coming out of our discussion where I
said "what about ... 'the government doing what most people want' " to
take acount of the issue of minorities.
| Quote: | I don't want to be in a relationship with a codependant teenager, so
I'm not going to suggest an answer.
Fran
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
|
I'll keep that in mind.
Fran
| Quote: | If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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FRAN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | FRAN wrote:
Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the role of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
Comments?
Government of the people, by the people, for the people?
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I think that's getting as close to a perfect summary as is available
within the limitations. Wish I'd though of it.
Fran
| Quote: | --
John Dean
Oxford |
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Lars Eighner
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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In our last episode,
<Xns96B4E54FD4382whhvans@80.5.182.99>,
the lovely and talented Harvey Van Sickle
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | On 16 Aug 2005, FRAN wrote
Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought
from him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
How about "A system in which the general population decides who governs
them"?
Damn: 11 words.
|
Democracy is a constant threat to liberty and legal equality.
--
Lars Eighner eighner@io.com http://www.larseighner.com/
I don't see posts from or threads started from googlegroups.
"Four be the things I'd been better without: Love, curiosity, freckles
and doubt." -- Dorothy Parker |
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Liz
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:19 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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"John Dean" wrote:
| Quote: | FRAN wrote:
Comments?
Government of the people, by the people, for the people?
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One person, one government, his-and-hers closet and bath. |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:36 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:12:26 -0500, the renowned Lars Eighner
<eighner@io.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In our last episode,
Xns96B4E54FD4382whhvans@80.5.182.99>,
the lovely and talented Harvey Van Sickle
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
On 16 Aug 2005, FRAN wrote
Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought
from him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of
"democracy", and provided about 8 cm of line space.
How about "A system in which the general population decides who governs
them"?
Damn: 11 words.
Democracy is a constant threat to liberty and legal equality.
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The lesser evil for which you vote is nevertheless evil. |
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FRAN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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de781@aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | FRAN wrote:
meirman wrote:
In alt.english.usage on 16 Aug 2005 14:27:22 -0700 "FRAN"
fran_beta@hotmail.com> posted:
Max came home today with the standard homework sheet which sought from
him, amonst other things, an explanation of the concept of "democracy",
and provided about 8 cm of line space.
It seemed to me that there were so many things one might want to say,
about the rights of citizens, assumptions about volition and agency,
the roile of consensus and so forth that 8 cm was simply inadequate,
but I eventually settled on "the government doing what most people
want", even though this wasn't really adequate.
Given the context (questions about who the Prime Minister and Premier
were, the names of the chambers of the parliament and the site of the
seat of national government) I supposed this was closest to what the
teacher had in mind.
Comments?
I think Max should do his own homework. You can suggest things for
him to read, and that's as far as you should go.
I don't think I can object to your observation here on principle, but
given the order of answer demanded (two and a bit short lines) and the
very well composed post of Mr Ambuhl above, which goes far beyond
anything I could reasonably expect Max to deduce from independent
research, still less encapsulate in that space, I did feel inclined to
be more proactive.
God!! Who CARES? God forbid
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I'm of secular inclination.
| Quote: | your child might actually write something
down that his elementary school teacher "dislikes",
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I'm not bothered about that. I was more interested in him understanding
the question.
| Quote: | or even get it
"wrong"--if that were really possible in elementary school! Do you
ENCOURAGE your kid to be a suck-up?!
|
I encourage manners, and the following of rules. Often, I'm told, he
takes this to heart and is courteous and disciplined, and like many
children, often he isn't.
I don't encourage sucking up though. And even if I did, that's not
something I could get him to do. His concern for his own amusement and
his desire to gratify himself as soon as it seems possible is much
stronger than anything I could tempt him with. He is getting better on
the deferred gratification bit, but it's a slow process, unlikely to be
completely realised in any timeframe meaningful to him or to me.
| Quote: | NO elementary school teacher
expects a little kid to write a NOVEL on their 2nd grade social studies
ditto, ESPECIALLY when only a few inches of space is given! DUH! And,
for any little kid who DOES happen to write something ridiculously
detailed, it's horribly obvious to his peers that his parents (or, in
this case, the intenet) did the homework for him!
|
Did you read what we came up with?
| Quote: | My God!! What is
this world coming to? Let your kid take his own chances and live his
own life!!
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I do. It started when he was born and I've been on the journey to
autonomy with him ever since. I'm still a fellow traveller though --
someone who says "I think that road looks promising" or "hmm, that lane
looks a little dodgy, so if you *do* go down there look out for pot
holes and make sure you have a working torch. I'll just wait up here.
Give me a yell if you get confused or frightened."
Fran |
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FRAN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Democracy in ten words or fewer |
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heron stone wrote:
| Quote: | Comments?
.well, i can't resist...
democracy: an Earth management system in which people elect
"representatives" to be responsible for the fate of
humanity, and then whine about what "they" do...
as distinguished from...
participating directly in decisions about matters of
personal importance... or shuting up if you are unwilling
to get involved
.if you've got a gripe, do something beyond whining about it
.we have the technology now for a new kind of management/
governance of Earth... a global network that could be
configured so that people might directly determine the
courses of action pursued by the "corporate" entity
.of course this implies that people must actually educate
themselves and commit a percent of their time in serving
their fellows/fellowettes
.personally, i'm quite optimistic
yours in Earth
heron
unDO email address
___
Nature,
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I can endorse the sentiment, but it's quite a bit longer than ten
words.
Fran |
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