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Alan OBrien
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Milliard |
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I read the word milliard today - in a book about the 1st World War (quoting
Schlieffen).
That is the first time I have seen that word in English probably in 10
years.
And it isn't going to make a comeback.
--
Work like the ponies in coalmines.
Dance like the teardrop explodes.
Love like you're Frank in Blue Velvet.
Sing as though your little throat would burst. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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Alan OBrien wrote:
| Quote: | I read the word milliard today - in a book about the 1st World War (quoting
Schlieffen).
That is the first time I have seen that word in English probably in 10
years.
And it isn't going to make a comeback.
|
What we call a billion. In traditional European counting,
one has one thousand, one million, one milliard, one billion
(which is what we in the USA call a trillion).
GFH |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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On 31 Jul 2005, wrote
| Quote: |
Alan OBrien wrote:
I read the word milliard today - in a book about the 1st World
War (quoting Schlieffen).
That is the first time I have seen that word in English probably
in 10 years.
And it isn't going to make a comeback.
What we call a billion. In traditional European counting,
one has one thousand, one million, one milliard, one billion
(which is what we in the USA call a trillion).
|
With respect, I think that was assumed in Alan's post. The point is
that whilst the UK used to make the million/milliard/billion
distinction, the term "milliard" is now almost never seen in the wild:
one needs to oassumes when encountering "billion" in a UK report that
it means "US billion" rather than "milliard".
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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In alt.english.usage on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:18:12 GMT Harvey Van
Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> posted:
| Quote: | On 31 Jul 2005, wrote
Alan OBrien wrote:
I read the word milliard today - in a book about the 1st World
War (quoting Schlieffen).
That is the first time I have seen that word in English probably
in 10 years.
And it isn't going to make a comeback.
What we call a billion. In traditional European counting,
one has one thousand, one million, one milliard, one billion
(which is what we in the USA call a trillion).
With respect, I think that was assumed in Alan's post. The point is
that whilst the UK used to make the million/milliard/billion
distinction, the term "milliard" is now almost never seen in the wild:
one needs to oassumes when encountering "billion" in a UK report that
it means "US billion" rather than "milliard".
|
OK, except I thought the last two were the same!
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
For gosh sakes, when you ask a question, say what sort of English you are asking about.
When you give an answer, say in what part of the world you think your answer is valid.
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years | Brooklyn 12 years
Indianapolis 7 years | Now in
Chicago 6 years | Baltimore 22 years |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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On 31 Jul 2005, meirman wrote
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 13:18:12 GMT Harvey Van
Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> posted:
|
-snip-
| Quote: | With respect, I think that was assumed in Alan's post. The point
is that whilst the UK used to make the million/milliard/billion
distinction, the term "milliard" is now almost never seen in the
wild: one needs to oassumes when encountering "billion" in a UK
report that it means "US billion" rather than "milliard".
OK, except I thought the last two were the same!
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They are; but in former UK usage, a "billion" meant something
different than a "milliard". (What I was trying to say is that
the US meaning of "billion" -- when unadjectived -- has overtaken
"milliard" to such an extent that the latter has now disappeared.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Alan OBrien
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:15 am
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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"Harvey Van Sickle" <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96A4916B150FEwhhvans@62.253.170.163...
| Quote: | On 31 Jul 2005, wrote
Alan OBrien wrote:
I read the word milliard today - in a book about the 1st World
War (quoting Schlieffen).
That is the first time I have seen that word in English probably
in 10 years.
And it isn't going to make a comeback.
What we call a billion. In traditional European counting,
one has one thousand, one million, one milliard, one billion
(which is what we in the USA call a trillion).
With respect, I think that was assumed in Alan's post. The point is
that whilst the UK used to make the million/milliard/billion
distinction, the term "milliard" is now almost never seen in the wild:
one needs to oassumes when encountering "billion" in a UK report that
it means "US billion" rather than "milliard".
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That is indeed what was meant... I used to have a maths teacher who used
milliard; I have not heard it used by an English-speaker since 1980. |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:37 am
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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<georgeh@ankerstein.org> wrote in message
news:1122814035.637682.205830@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Alan OBrien wrote:
I read the word milliard today - in a book about the 1st World War
(quoting
Schlieffen).
That is the first time I have seen that word in English probably in 10
years.
And it isn't going to make a comeback.
What we call a billion. In traditional European counting,
one has one thousand, one million, one milliard, one billion
(which is what we in the USA call a trillion).
|
That is true, and official, in most - all? - of Western Europe. France used
the US-style "short billion" for a long time, but officially reverted to the
"long billion" in 1961. The languages of Western Europe still have
"milliard" or a recognisable equivalent for what the US knows as a
"billion". It seems that the "short billion" is used primarily in
English-speaking countries, including _officially_ the UK. In _everyday_ UK
speech, "billion", if not simply used to mean "a huge number", may still
often be taken as a million million.
An informative website: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Long_scale .
Follow "Contents - History".
Alan Jones |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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In article news:<ACYGe.261117$Vo6.52635@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
OBrien wrote:
| Quote: | I read the word milliard today
[snip]
it isn't going to make a comeback.
|
It's not going to make a comback because it hasn't been away (not
completely, anyway).
Don't be so quick to admit defeat -- give "miliard" a fair chance! It's a
much nicer word than "billion" and untainted by ambiguity.
It's billion I want to see die, far too confusing to be allowed to be
used.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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In article news:<qEaHe.68508$Pf3.37709@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
Jones wrote:
| Quote: | It seems that the "short billion" is used primarily in
English-speaking countries, including _officially_ the UK.
|
I'd be interested to know by what authority a word can have an "official"
meaning in the UK ... we have no language police after the style of the
Academie Francaise, after all.
| Quote: | In _everyday_ UK speech, "billion", if not simply used to mean "a
huge number", may still often be taken as a million million.
|
Indeed. I avoid "billion" because of the potential for misunderstanding
(except when I want to cause misunderstanding, to make a point) but I would
certainly never use it to mean a mere thousand million. We have another
perfectly good word for that.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:31:30 +0100, Daniel James
<wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<qEaHe.68508$Pf3.37709@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
Jones wrote:
It seems that the "short billion" is used primarily in
English-speaking countries, including _officially_ the UK.
I'd be interested to know by what authority a word can have an "official"
meaning in the UK ... we have no language police after the style of the
Academie Francaise, after all.
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A word can have a defined "official" meaning for official purposes.
This does not rule out other meanings in "non-offical" contexts.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Alan OBrien
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:oi3se11qalrqrv8ih2avd467van60kam33@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:31:30 +0100, Daniel James
wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
In article news:<qEaHe.68508$Pf3.37709@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
Jones wrote:
It seems that the "short billion" is used primarily in
English-speaking countries, including _officially_ the UK.
I'd be interested to know by what authority a word can have an "official"
meaning in the UK ... we have no language police after the style of the
Academie Francaise, after all.
A word can have a defined "official" meaning for official purposes.
This does not rule out other meanings in "non-offical" contexts.
|
If the Chancellor of the Exchequer says he is hoping to increase tax revenue
by £6 billion then I hope he means 6,000,000,000. If it is in use by the
government then, as you say, that is sort-of official, surely. |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:teoHe.3197$GO1.2412@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: | "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:oi3se11qalrqrv8ih2avd467van60kam33@4ax.com...
On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:31:30 +0100, Daniel James
wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote:
In article news:<qEaHe.68508$Pf3.37709@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
Jones wrote:
It seems that the "short billion" is used primarily in
English-speaking countries, including _officially_ the UK.
I'd be interested to know by what authority a word can have an "official"
meaning in the UK ... we have no language police after the style of the
Academie Francaise, after all.
A word can have a defined "official" meaning for official purposes.
This does not rule out other meanings in "non-offical" contexts.
If the Chancellor of the Exchequer says he is hoping to increase tax
revenue by £6 billion then I hope he means 6,000,000,000. If it is in use
by the government then, as you say, that is sort-of official, surely.
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That's certainly what he would mean. "By "official" I intended "used by
Government and Civil Service, and by their advisors". Apparently it was PM
Harold Wilson who decreed what "billion" was henceforth to mean when used
officially.
Alan Jones |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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Daniel James wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<qEaHe.68508$Pf3.37709@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Alan Jones wrote:
It seems that the "short billion" is used primarily in
English-speaking countries, including _officially_ the UK.
I'd be interested to know by what authority a word can have an
"official" meaning in the UK ... we have no language police after
the
style of the Academie Francaise, after all.
In _everyday_ UK speech, "billion", if not simply used to mean "a
huge number", may still often be taken as a million million.
Indeed. I avoid "billion" because of the potential for
misunderstanding (except when I want to cause misunderstanding, to
make a point) but I would certainly never use it to mean a mere
thousand million. We have another perfectly good word for that.
|
Is there actually any realistic chance of misunderstanding? As far as
I know the "short" billion has been well established in BrEtcE for
decades, and it's only discussions like this which give it any
ambiguity. I except the informal conversational use Alan mentions: he
may well be right, though it's hard to tell; but I see no sign of its
slipping over into formal use.
--
Mike. |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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In article news:<UuoHe.3410$GO1.1381@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
Jones wrote:
| Quote: | Apparently it was PM Harold Wilson who decreed what "billion" was
henceforth to mean when used officially.
|
I thought that it was not the PM himself but one of his senior civil
servants who made thart regrettable blunder. I would have thought that
Wilson would have known the word "milliard" and would have suggested its
use in place of "billion", when referring to the short billion, to avoid
any misunderstanding.
Whoever it was, I hope they rot in hell.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Milliard |
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Daniel James wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<UuoHe.3410$GO1.1381@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
Alan
Jones wrote:
Apparently it was PM Harold Wilson who decreed what "billion" was
henceforth to mean when used officially.
I thought that it was not the PM himself but one of his senior
civil
servants who made thart regrettable blunder. I would have thought
that
Wilson would have known the word "milliard" and would have
suggested
its use in place of "billion", when referring to the short billion,
to avoid any misunderstanding.
Whoever it was, I hope they rot in hell.
|
My son's studying social anthropology, and will need to do a
dissertation. Can I suggest you as an interesting topic? You'd have
to undergo quite a lot of questioning, and he might want to follow
you about, taking notes, for a few weeks. Would that be all right?
--
Mike. |
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