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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:54 pm
Post subject: You think WE have problems? |
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The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may be
called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each other's
speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling systems. One
combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the feelings of the
champions of different systems as varying "from murderous to totally
pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do not
like to see their work challenged." "
<wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after debating
their own language to come over and join in the debate about ours.
--
John Dean
Oxford
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Troy Steadman
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may be
called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each other's
speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling systems. One
combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the feelings of the
champions of different systems as varying "from murderous to totally
pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do not
like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after debating
their own language to come over and join in the debate about ours.
--
John Dean
Oxford
|
My Grandmother was Cornish and if you have a little child in your
family sit them on your lap, open their palm, then run a light,
circular, tickling motion around it.
"Can you keep a secret?
I don't suppose you can!
You mustn't laugh, you mustn't cry,
While the tickle's in your hand!
If you cry you'll be a monkey
If you laugh you'll be a donkey"
"dunkey" to rhyme with "monkey".
She came from Truro if that helps. |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may be
called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each other's
speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling systems. One
combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the feelings of the
champions of different systems as varying "from murderous to totally
pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do not
like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after debating
their own language to come over and join in the debate about ours.
|
Your extract omitted what is arguably the most important part of the
article:
Last month the government announced that it would fund the language
by up to GBP80,000 a year for three years - but the worry is that the
cash flow will dry up if agreement over spelling cannot be found.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:17 am
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may be
called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each other's
speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling systems. One
combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the feelings of the
champions of different systems as varying "from murderous to totally
pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do not
like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after debating
their own language to come over and join in the debate about ours.
|
Did it mention that all of these various versions are just speculative
reconstructions, and that the last native speaker of the language died
in the 18th century?
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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Don Aitken wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may be
called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each other's
speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling systems. One
combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the feelings of the
champions of different systems as varying "from murderous to totally
pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do not
like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after debating
their own language to come over and join in the debate about ours.
Did it mention that all of these various versions are just speculative
reconstructions, and that the last native speaker of the language died
in the 18th century?
|
A search of Google groups reveals that Ethnologue.com once said that
Cornish was spoken only as a second language. But they've now changed
that to "Some children grow up bilingual in English." See
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=cor
Since an attempt is being made to revive Cornish, a common spelling
system would be useful, and for all we know may make the difference
between the revival succeeding or failing. Nor would I call it a
question of "speculative reconstruction," since if the language is
indeed once again a first language to some people--where the situation
is one where one can have two first languages, as in the case of anyone
who is bilingual from a very young age--it would be best to have a
writing system to represent their speech.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:35 am
Post subject: "That version was easiest to teach" (was: You think WE have |
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On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, John Dean wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
|
Why "that version was *easiest* to teach", rather that "the easiest" or
"easier"? I've also come across sentences along the lines of "I think it
best to..." and "probably x is commonest". Why is that?
[...]
Bye, FB
--
Just as I thought. Another test that could have cost us our lives, saved
only by the fact that I am enormously well-bred.
(Murder by Death) |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:15 am
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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Peter Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may
be called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each
other's speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling
systems. One combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the
feelings of the champions of different systems as varying "from
murderous to totally pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do
not like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after
debating their own language to come over and join in the debate
about ours.
Your extract omitted what is arguably the most important part of the
article:
Last month the government announced that it would fund the
language by up to GBP80,000 a year for three years - but the
worry is that the cash flow will dry up if agreement over
spelling cannot be found.
|
I thought that was astonishingly cheap at the price. Indeed, it would
have been cheap at half the price or for twice the period. What with
Cornwall being a Lib Dem stronghold it seems to me we are in for some
fascinating parliamentary debates.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:18 am
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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Don Aitken wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which may
be called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each
other's speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling
systems. One combatant I beg your pardon participant describes the
feelings of the champions of different systems as varying "from
murderous to totally pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had
the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People
have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do
not like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after
debating their own language to come over and join in the debate
about ours.
Did it mention that all of these various versions are just speculative
reconstructions, and that the last native speaker of the language died
in the 18th century?
|
Hell yes.
"The revival of Cornish began to gather pace in the 1920s when a version
which came to be known as Unified Cornish was reconstructed using
language found in medieval miracle plays and borrowing from related
Celtic tongues such as Welsh and Breton. Forty years ago, as interest
grew, the Cornish Language Board was formed. Some members felt Unified
Cornish was inaccurate and came up with a new system, with different
spellings, Common Cornish. In the mid 1980s, another splinter group set
up the Cornish Language Council and championed a third system, Modern
Cornish, based not on medieval manuscripts but the way the language was
last spoken in the 1700s.
....
"In 1935, listeners to the BBC were puzzled but interested by a music
programme from Plymouth. When the BBC explained that the St Austell
choir was singing in Cornish, it was bombarded by requests to know more.
Even the Cornish seemed to have forgotten about their historic tongue.
....
By the start of the 17th century there were few monoglot speakers left,
mostly in the far west. The reputed last one, Dolly Pentreath, died in
1777. Bilingual speakers could be found until the late 19th century,
but the region's sinking economic fortunes were mirrored by its
language's continued decline."
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: You think WE have problems? |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | Don Aitken wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:54:44 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
The Guardian has an item on the Cornish language:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,2763,1534623,00.html
More particularly, on how to *spell* the Cornish language. Which
may be called Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack.
There are apparently three main groups. They can understand each
other's speech but cannot reconcile their different spelling
systems. One combatant I beg your pardon participant describes
the
feelings of the champions of different systems as varying "from
murderous to totally pissed off."
"Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports
Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified
Cornish
Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking
around
with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers
had the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect.
George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version
was
easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a
Darwinian
situation - the survival of the fittest."
Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by
Cornwall
county council, said the debate often became overly personal.
"People have invested a lot of time and effort in the various
forms
and do not like to see their work challenged." "
wistfully> seems sad that they won't have time left over after
debating their own language to come over and join in the debate
about ours.
Did it mention that all of these various versions are just
speculative reconstructions, and that the last native speaker of
the
language died in the 18th century?
A search of Google groups reveals that Ethnologue.com once said
that
Cornish was spoken only as a second language. But they've now
changed
that to "Some children grow up bilingual in English." See
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=cor
Since an attempt is being made to revive Cornish, a common spelling
system would be useful, and for all we know may make the difference
between the revival succeeding or failing. Nor would I call it a
question of "speculative reconstruction," since if the language is
indeed once again a first language to some people--where the
situation
is one where one can have two first languages, as in the case of
anyone who is bilingual from a very young age--it would be best to
have a writing system to represent their speech.
|
It's still speculative, and as far as I know not even a
reconstruction. Yes, Don, they did mention that the last reputed
monoglot Cornish-speaker died in the 18C. I understand some
bilinguals lived to the end of the 19C, and the article mentioned
that, too.
--
Mike. |
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Morvyl
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:25 pm
Post subject: Neo-Cornish |
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"Did it mention that all of these various versions are just speculative reconstructions, and that the last native speaker of the language died in the 18th century?
Don Aitken"
"It's still speculative, and as far as I know not even a reconstruction. Yes, Don, they did mention that the last reputed monoglot Cornish-speaker died in the 18C. I understand some bilinguals lived to the end of the 19C, and the article mentioned that, too.
Mike."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don, Mike
You both make it sound like Revived Cornish is some invented, “speculative” language. This is simply not true. What is correct is that there are a number of grammatical forms that have to be reconstructed for a few words, but if the given form is attested for one it can easily be applied to another for which there is no attestation, much like native speakers expand their grammatical forms by way of analogy. However, there is very little reconstruction necessary. Cornish is a fully functional and communicative language even without reconstructions.
Of course words for modern concepts have to be borrowed or invented for Neo-Cornish, but this is no different from other traditionally used minority languages that need to expand on their modern day vocabulary.
Dan |
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