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Northtip
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:36 am
Post subject: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
NT |
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Pete
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" wrote
| Quote: |
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
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"have" ?
Pete |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:56 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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In alt.english.usage on Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:36:29 GMT Northtip
<NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> posted:
| Quote: | I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
|
"that"
| Quote: | At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
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One could use "prefer" but at least these days in the US, "rather"
would have to be omitted then.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
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If you are emailing me please
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Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 22 years |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0gbdd1h22rvspcvhtian16rh9ajkvm55cj@4ax.com...
| Quote: | I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above
sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
|
Homework? The problem with inserting a verb is the form of the verb
already there in the subordinate clause. If it were the infinitive,
"make", you could put in all kinds of things: "have", "see", "let",
"make". Taking the sentence as it stands, we are forced to seek
expedients.
The obvious word is "that". Otherwise, with a little imagination, I
suppose you could stick in "cry over the spilt milk while" or "lie on
the kitchen floor in abandoned poses while", or some other such.
"[S]crub down the dungeon and oil the rack while" is an option, but
would require a certain emphasis on the word "[now]". |
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Northtip
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:04 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:12:56 -0400, "CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0gbdd1h22rvspcvhtian16rh9ajkvm55cj@4ax.com...
I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above
sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
Homework? The problem with inserting a verb is the form of the verb
already there in the subordinate clause. If it were the infinitive,
"make", you could put in all kinds of things: "have", "see", "let",
"make". Taking the sentence as it stands, we are forced to seek
expedients.
The obvious word is "that". Otherwise, with a little imagination, I
suppose you could stick in "cry over the spilt milk while" or "lie on
the kitchen floor in abandoned poses while", or some other such.
"[S]crub down the dungeon and oil the rack while" is an option, but
would require a certain emphasis on the word "[now]".
|
You also seem to need to do some homework. I agree with you that the
obvious word is 'that', which is usually optional. The main clause
before the missing 'that' needs to have a verb in addition to the
auxillary verb, would, in other grammarically correct sentences: I'd
rather + verb + that...
That is why I said a verb seemed to be omitted. I was wondering what
would be the most appropriate word in this situation. |
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Northtip
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:39 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:56:32 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:36:29 GMT Northtip
NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> posted:
I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
"that"
|
I did not mention it because it is often optional.
| Quote: |
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
One could use "prefer" but at least these days in the US, "rather"
would have to be omitted then.
|
I'd rather wish (that) you made dinner now.
I've come up with 'wish' because the verb in the subordinate clause is
a past tense with an adverb, now as if it were in a conditional clause
or 'I wish that~ ' clause.
| Quote: | NT
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage |
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Northtip
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:00 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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| Quote: |
I'd rather wish (that) you made dinner now.
I've come up with 'wish' because the verb in the subordinate clause is
a past tense with an adverb, now as if it were in a conditional clause
or 'I wish that~ ' clause.
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I also wonder one still calls this type of construction a subjunctive
mood. I understand some grammarians want to restrict the term, a
subjuctive mood, to an infinitive without 'to' used in 'that'-clause
followed by 'suggest', 'demand', etc. |
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Northtip
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:04 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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| Quote: |
I'd rather wish (that) you made dinner now.
I've come up with 'wish' because the verb in the subordinate clause is
a past tense with an adverb, now as if it were in a conditional clause
or 'I wish that~ ' clause.
|
I also wonder one still calls this type of construction a subjunctive
mood. I understand some grammarians want to restrict the term, a
subjuctive mood, to an infinitive without 'to' used in 'that'-clause
following a verb that expresses request, demand, or proposal such as
'suggest', 'demand', etc. |
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Pavel314
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:30 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:fmkdd1hiq2iviualcqs7929ubobtmagh15@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
I'd rather wish (that) you made dinner now.
I've come up with 'wish' because the verb in the subordinate clause is
a past tense with an adverb, now as if it were in a conditional clause
or 'I wish that~ ' clause.
I also wonder one still calls this type of construction a subjunctive
mood. I understand some grammarians want to restrict the term, a
subjuctive mood, to an infinitive without 'to' used in 'that'-clause
following a verb that expresses request, demand, or proposal such as
'suggest', 'demand', etc.
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It seems subjunctive to me, indicating one of a number of alternate
possibilities for the person being addressed.
I would phrase it "I'd rather have you make dinner now."
Paul |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:57 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:edgdd1tkkn4t0u2bqnnksk1qdlerujltlg@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:12:56 -0400, "CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote:
"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0gbdd1h22rvspcvhtian16rh9ajkvm55cj@4ax.com...
I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above
sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
Homework? The problem with inserting a verb is the form of the verb
already there in the subordinate clause. If it were the infinitive,
"make", you could put in all kinds of things: "have", "see", "let",
"make". Taking the sentence as it stands, we are forced to seek
expedients.
The obvious word is "that". Otherwise, with a little imagination, I
suppose you could stick in "cry over the spilt milk while" or "lie on
the kitchen floor in abandoned poses while", or some other such.
"[S]crub down the dungeon and oil the rack while" is an option, but
would require a certain emphasis on the word "[now]".
You also seem to need to do some homework. I agree with you that the
obvious word is 'that', which is usually optional. The main clause
before the missing 'that' needs to have a verb in addition to the
auxillary verb, would, in other grammarically correct sentences: I'd
rather + verb + that...
That is why I said a verb seemed to be omitted. I was wondering what
would be the most appropriate word in this situation.
|
From your post:
I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
There is a verb present. "I would (I'd) prefer (or "rather") you made
dinner now.
Actually, I have seen "I'd rather" interpreted as "I had rather" as in "I
had better", in addition to the "I would".
In either case, the subjunctive exists. There may be situations in which
the subjunctive will appear in an infinitive structure (minus the "to"), but
that is not always the case. Here is the simplest non-infinitive
subjunctive that comes to mind immediately: "I wish I was an Oscar Mayer
weiner. O, I wish I was in the land of cotton." (Condition contrary to
fact, and in normal speech I'd rather use "were"; subjunctive as an
expression of will, as in wishes, prayers or commands.)
"I'd rather you ate your dinner before asking for dessert."
"My father would rather I payed him some rent, as long as I have a job." |
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:09 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0gbdd1h22rvspcvhtian16rh9ajkvm55cj@4ax.com...
| Quote: | I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted.
|
I'm afraid you're wrong.
Adrian |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:42 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:edgdd1tkkn4t0u2bqnnksk1qdlerujltlg@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:12:56 -0400, "CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca
wrote:
"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0gbdd1h22rvspcvhtian16rh9ajkvm55cj@4ax.com...
I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic
expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above
sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
Homework? The problem with inserting a verb is the form of the verb
already there in the subordinate clause. If it were the infinitive,
"make", you could put in all kinds of things: "have", "see", "let",
"make". Taking the sentence as it stands, we are forced to seek
expedients.
The obvious word is "that". Otherwise, with a little imagination, I
suppose you could stick in "cry over the spilt milk while" or "lie
on
the kitchen floor in abandoned poses while", or some other such.
"[S]crub down the dungeon and oil the rack while" is an option, but
would require a certain emphasis on the word "[now]".
You also seem to need to do some homework. I agree with you that the
obvious word is 'that', which is usually optional. The main clause
before the missing 'that' needs to have a verb in addition to the
auxillary verb, would, in other grammarically correct sentences: I'd
rather + verb + that...
That is why I said a verb seemed to be omitted. I was wondering what
would be the most appropriate word in this situation.
|
No! I never have to do homework again. Alternatively, that's all I
have to do. Some people post here looking for clarification of their
school assignments, and I thought you might be one of these.
Your question makes difficulties for North Americans like me, who
don't use "rather" to mean "kinda" very much. Assuming that that's
what you're doing, and that the sentence is "I should rather (would
kinda) [verb] [that] you made dinner now," I agree with your
observation that "prefer" works well in the space; so would "prefer it
if" (you said "at least a verb"seemed to be omitted). I prefer one of
those to "hope", which seems to me to call for "would make".
I don't think there's anything wrong with omitting the largely
meaningless "rather" for Leftpondian consumption, or substituting as
above. Why should it always be possible to say the same thing in the
same words in different dialects? Indeed, how could it be? |
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ray o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:45 am
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:0gbdd1h22rvspcvhtian16rh9ajkvm55cj@4ax.com...
| Quote: | I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
NT
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It works fine as it is |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:49 pm
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote...
| Quote: | I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
|
In this construction the "rather" started out as adverbial ("I'd rather
wish...") and then became a verb in its own right, being replaceable by
"prefer". In a construction like "Don't change, unless you'd rather"
this is completely clear.
Matti |
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Edwin I
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:18 pm
Post subject: Re: [Grammar Question] I'd rather you made dinner now. |
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"Northtip" <NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:dpidd1dlmf5llgn2mk65a4kc5kjm2vqjpu@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:56:32 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com
wrote:
In alt.english.usage on Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:36:29 GMT Northtip
NorthTip@sbcglobal.net> posted:
I'd rather ( . . . ) you made dinner now.
Although I understand I have to accept and use idiomatic expressions
as they are, I can't help but wonder what word or words would have
occupied the space indicated by the parentheses in the above sentence.
"that"
I did not mention it because it is often optional.
|
It's not optional. It's redundant; therefore, it is superfluous.
I'd rather what? I'd rather that. To what does the that refer? It refers to
you making dinner. Both do not need to be said. There are far too many thats
used.
| Quote: |
At least a verb seems to be omitted. Would you know what is?
One could use "prefer" but at least these days in the US, "rather"
would have to be omitted then.
I'd rather wish (that) you made dinner now.
I've come up with 'wish' because the verb in the subordinate clause is
a past tense with an adverb, now as if it were in a conditional clause
or 'I wish that~ ' clause.
NT
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
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