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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:11 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:01:02 GMT, rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:37:00 +0000 (UTC), Areff
me@privacy.net> wrote:
Cupcakes are pretty close notionally to a miniature cake. Cupcakes should
be distinguished from (American) muffins, which should be distinguished
from AmE "English muffins", which should be distinguished from BrE
muffins, not to mention crumpets.
Speaking of which I think Taiwan Bill has stopped
grepping for Taiwan or God. Or his latest wife
got him.
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Franke has been spending time in California on a three-week holiday.
He should be back soon.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 19:11:45 +0100, Charles Riggs
<chriggs@éircom.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:01:02 GMT, rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:37:00 +0000 (UTC), Areff
me@privacy.net> wrote:
Cupcakes are pretty close notionally to a miniature cake. Cupcakes should
be distinguished from (American) muffins, which should be distinguished
from AmE "English muffins", which should be distinguished from BrE
muffins, not to mention crumpets.
Speaking of which I think Taiwan Bill has stopped
grepping for Taiwan or God. Or his latest wife
got him.
Franke has been spending time in California on a three-week holiday.
He should be back soon.
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He should be where he is needed. They may invade
China any minute. |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:03 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake |
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In message <1gzqn8e.193ub2wnsmsgkN%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> writes
| Quote: | Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
I guess you're right. A Fig Roll is a biscuit, notionally, but is not
crunchy. So what is the difference between a cookie/bicuit and a cake?
|
The decisive question is how do they behave when they age. Cakes start
out soft and harden on staling, while biscuits start out hard and soften
on staling. No nonsense about twice cooked.
| Quote: | I see the road unrolling before us that is paved with all the names of
baked goods.
If we go down this road yet again, would someone promise to turn it into
some sort of FAQ-reference? Like the Great Britain/England pages? I'm
sure everyone would kibitz helpfully.
Meanwhile, I know we've already found pictures for a lot of these
things. The Cook's Thesaurus is a decent site with pictures, names, and
some text about a wide variety of foods. For example:
http://www.foodsubs.com/Cookies.html
And there are food lists ad nauseam at |
<http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.por
tal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000118&prope
rtyType=document#P240_9779>
Thinks: Time for Tiny! http://tinyurl.com/7n3qy
No prizes for working out the connection.
That site has much to catch the imagination. What is a barfi? Is horse
meat exotic? Who eats semi-set alcoholic jellies designed to be
swallowed as cocktails? Where does one go to buy unfermented fruit
juice intended specifically for sacramental purposes?
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:25 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake |
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Paul Wolff wrote:
| Quote: | In message <1gzqn8e.193ub2wnsmsgkN%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
trio@euronet.nl> writes
Will <billrigby@hotmail.com> wrote:
I guess you're right. A Fig Roll is a biscuit, notionally, but
is
not crunchy. So what is the difference between a cookie/bicuit
and
a cake?
The decisive question is how do they behave when they age. Cakes
start
out soft and harden on staling, while biscuits start out hard and
soften on staling. No nonsense about twice cooked.
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Right, except about "twice cooked". I'd always assumed it meant not
"cooked twice", but "cooked more than usual" -- cf "high-baked". But
Beeton says it meant the kind for ships and other butch applications
were first baked normally, then set to dry out in the hot air in a
space above the oven -- to make sure they were dry enough not to go
mouldy in store.
I think our modern sweet biscuits have acquired the name simply
because they're thin.
| Quote: |
[...]
swallowed as cocktails? Where does one go to buy unfermented fruit
juice intended specifically for sacramental purposes?
|
My father told, among many an anecdote of greater or lesser
reliability, of a wowser congregation in Oz which used red jelly
crystals dissolved in water; one Sunday the Good Lord arranged
weather cooler than average, and the concoction proved to have set.
--
Mike. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:28 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake |
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Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
What a strange list. In ten words or less, what does it mean to
"zero-rate" vs. "standard-rate" something? Is it like tax-exempt -- you
do not charge VAT when you sell these products? It seems so random.
Chocolate cups here, sweetened popcorn there.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Dick Chambers
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:41 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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"Areff wrote
| Quote: |
I hope no one in the UK considers a fig roll a "roll".
---------------------------- |
We don't. A roll, in BrE, is a small item of bread, often eaten as an
accompaniment to soup. Larger rolls, typically about 6" (15 cm) in diameter
and 2" (5 cm) thick, are often used for making sandwiches. These are often
called by the alternative name "breadcake".
We do call fig rolls by exactly that name, and we would not understand what
a US American might mean by a "Fig Newton". Did a fig drop on Isaac's head
while he was pondering in the shade of the tree?
A Yorkshire and Lancashire speciality is the oven-bottom cake, which despite
its "cake" terminology is actually white bread. This is bread dough that has
been baked right at the bottom of the baker's oven, where the heat is less
intense. The baker's motivation is to economise on heat by making good use
of a part of the oven that is often wasted in other parts of the country.
The oven-bottom cake is three-quarters baked in the bakery, and the customer
expects to finish the job of baking later in his own oven at home. The
advantage to the customer is that he can produce his own hot bread, straight
out of the oven onto the dining table. Oven-bottom cakes come in three
sizes. Small, 4" diameter. Medium, 7" diameter. Large, 10" diameter. All
sizes about 2" to 3" thick. Highly recommended if you ever visit northern
England and have access to your own home oven.
---------------------------------------
| Quote: |
So what is the difference between a cookie/bicuit and a cake?
I think we've discussed this one before. In AmE there's one obvious
difference that might not be applicable to BrE: size. Well, shape
too. Cookies tend to be small; at its largest a cookie might be six
inches in diameter. Moreover, cookies are relatively flat things, though
often less flat than crackers (= BrE "savoury biscuits"?).
--------------------------------------- |
In the last twenty years, cookies have become well established in Britain
and the word has become incorporated into our language. One of the better
ideas to have arrived in this country from the USA. Every covered shopping
mall has a stall selling chocolate, ginger, spiced or plain cookies,
soft-centred but with a slightly crunchy outer skin, usually about 6" in
diameter and 0.5 to 0.75" thick. The larger supermarkets also sell packets
of cookies, fresh-baked each day.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK. |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:53 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake |
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In message <1gzrnsx.sq7iu81uxnsimN%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> writes
All are subject to tax, at zero or seventeenandahalf percent. There are
some other intermediate rates.
I'll trade a one-word seventeenandahalf against your 'less'.
| Quote: | Is it like tax-exempt -- you
do not charge VAT when you sell these products? It seems so random.
Chocolate cups here, sweetened popcorn there.
I think the rationale, if rationale there be, is that luxuries (treats) |
are taxed in full, while necessities (sustenance) are taxed at the
minimum.
There's a point to a zero tax rate, but I forget what it is. All I can
think of for now is that the values of zero-rated items are included in
the total sales box on the tax return, but exempt items (interest, for
example) aren't, and this is significant because VAT has to be accounted
for above a certain minimum annual sales value (around GBP 50-60k).
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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John Holmes
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: | Will wrote:
I guess you're right. A Fig Roll is a biscuit, notionally, but is
not crunchy.
Interestingly enough, the 1914 trademark registration record for "fig
newton" apparently described the product as a "biscuit". More
evidence of the former currency of "biscuit" (in the BrE sort of
sense) in AmE, along with Nabisco (National Biscuit Company).
|
Was it the case that the scone-like biscuit was a Southern usage and the
other a northern one? If so, it is interesting that it was the Southern
meaning that won out.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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John Holmes wrote:
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
Will wrote:
I guess you're right. A Fig Roll is a biscuit, notionally, but is
not crunchy.
Interestingly enough, the 1914 trademark registration record for "fig
newton" apparently described the product as a "biscuit". More
evidence of the former currency of "biscuit" (in the BrE sort of
sense) in AmE, along with Nabisco (National Biscuit Company).
Was it the case that the scone-like biscuit was a Southern usage and the
other a northern one?
|
I believe so, and that is interesting. I think the scone-like biscuit has
become relatively nationalized (thanks in part to Kentucky Fried Chicken
[nka "KFC"]) but I, for one, still think of it as a Southern-origin thing.
I don't know if the two terms ever really competed, however. Maybe
"cookie/cracker biscuit" died out before Southern "scone biscuit" went
national.
Also note that cookie/cracker "biscuit" does exist in my passive
vocabulary, and not just as a BrE term. I think of it as referring to
certain sorts of cookies. |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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"John Holmes" <see sig> wrote in message
news:42d8fc9c$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
Will wrote:
I guess you're right. A Fig Roll is a biscuit, notionally, but is
not crunchy.
Interestingly enough, the 1914 trademark registration record for "fig
newton" apparently described the product as a "biscuit". More
evidence of the former currency of "biscuit" (in the BrE sort of
sense) in AmE, along with Nabisco (National Biscuit Company).
Was it the case that the scone-like biscuit was a Southern usage and the
other a northern one? If so, it is interesting that it was the Southern
meaning that won out.
I don't think the term "biscuit" for the scone-like item was particularly |
southern. It was more likely universal, and still refers to home-cooked
biscuits. (When was baking powder invented?) Our mother made them
frequently to serve as a base for gravy of any kind as well as creamed
chipped beef, creamed cod, creamed tuna, salmon (in cream sauce or as a
patty). The southern biscuit usage is most recognized, in my experience,
when served in a meal as "biscuits and gravy", the gravy being primarily the
white gravy with the pork sausage cooked into it.
Small square (2 1/2" on the side) bread rolls are frequently baked in
rectangular or square pans and sold all stuck together in "flats". We also
call them biscuits, whether homemade or "bought". They are an almost
universally served item in the bread baskets presented with salads at many
restaurants. They are frequently accompanied by packets of saltines,
variously flavored bread sticks, and little plastic tubs of butter. |
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Matthew Huntbach
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
And there are food lists ad nauseam at
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.por
tal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000118&prope
rtyType=document#P240_9779
Thinks: Time for Tiny! http://tinyurl.com/7n3qy
What a strange list. In ten words or less, what does it mean to
"zero-rate" vs. "standard-rate" something? Is it like tax-exempt -- you
do not charge VAT when you sell these products? It seems so random.
Chocolate cups here, sweetened popcorn there.
|
The rule in the UK is that food which is a staple part of meals is
exempt from the standard 17.5% national sales tax i.e. it is
zero-rated. Confectionery and snacks eaten outside meals, however, are
not exempt i.e. they are standard rated. From this stems all this
detail trying to establish just what category various items fall into.
Matthew Huntbach |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake |
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"Matthew Huntbach" <mhuntbach@hotmail.com> wrote...
It's confusing to use "exempt" as a synonym for "zero-rated", though.
Here's an example where the difference can be important. Consider a
building contractor who builds and sells new houses and also buys
existing houses to repair and sell. The sale of a new house is
zero-rated for VAT, whilst that of an existing house is exempt. The
contractor will be charged VAT for many of the goods and services he
uses in both types of activity, but he can only reclaim the VAT charged
on those which are used in the building of his new houses. The VAT he
incurs in the repairs will have to be built into the price he charges
for the existing houses.
Matti |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:42 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: | John Holmes wrote:
Areff wrote:
Will wrote:
I guess you're right. A Fig Roll is a biscuit, notionally, but
is
not crunchy.
Interestingly enough, the 1914 trademark registration record for
"fig newton" apparently described the product as a "biscuit".
More
evidence of the former currency of "biscuit" (in the BrE sort of
sense) in AmE, along with Nabisco (National Biscuit Company).
Was it the case that the scone-like biscuit was a Southern usage
and
the other a northern one?
I believe so, and that is interesting. I think the scone-like
biscuit has become relatively nationalized (thanks in part to
Kentucky Fried Chicken [nka "KFC"]) but I, for one, still think of
it
as a Southern-origin thing.
I don't know if the two terms ever really competed, however. Maybe
"cookie/cracker biscuit" died out before Southern "scone biscuit"
went
national.
Also note that cookie/cracker "biscuit" does exist in my passive
vocabulary, and not just as a BrE term. I think of it as referring
to
certain sorts of cookies.
|
As good a moment as any to mention -- as I did at least one of the
other times we went round this mulberry bush -- that if you overcook
plain scones (experto crede) you get something very like the kind of
biscuit they used to take on expeditions. I can't easily believe this
a coincidence. I'm confident that I'd be able to make army-ration
biscuits on, at most, the third attempt (why weren't the things
wholemeal?).
--
Mike. |
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:57 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:42:14 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | As good a moment as any to mention -- as I did at least one of the
other times we went round this mulberry bush -- that if you overcook
plain scones (experto crede) you get something very like the kind of
biscuit they used to take on expeditions. I can't easily believe this
a coincidence. I'm confident that I'd be able to make army-ration
biscuits on, at most, the third attempt (why weren't the things
wholemeal?).
|
What era of army rations are we talking about here? Are these the
same sort of biscuits as ship's biscuits or "hard tack"? You're sure
they were made of refined flour?
Just checking these parameters before chancing my arm with any
speculative answers.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:36 am
Post subject: Re: Cookie/Biscuit or Cake (WAS Re: Garibaldi Biscuits) |
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Wood Avens wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:42:14 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
As good a moment as any to mention -- as I did at least one of the
other times we went round this mulberry bush -- that if you
overcook
plain scones (experto crede) you get something very like the kind
of
biscuit they used to take on expeditions. I can't easily believe
this
a coincidence. I'm confident that I'd be able to make army-ration
biscuits on, at most, the third attempt (why weren't the things
wholemeal?).
What era of army rations are we talking about here? Are these the
same sort of biscuits as ship's biscuits or "hard tack"? You're
sure
they were made of refined flour?
Just checking these parameters before chancing my arm with any
speculative answers.
|
The ones I've eaten -- with some relish -- were made of white flour.
Oblong with the corners cut off, and dotted with regular pinpricks. I
don't know from the Navy ones. (Beeton 1861 and unaltered 1906 say
ships' biscuits are made from wheat flour from which only the
coarsest bran has been removed, while "captain's biscuits" are made
from "finer flour". I guess this means the old ones were wholemeal.)
--
Mike. |
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