| Author |
Message |
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Matthew Huntbach wrote:
Garibaldi was widely admired in 19th-century England. He was seen as
a liberal reformer who was pushing through the sort of reforms that
had already taken place in Britain. He was also seen as an enemy of
the papacy, at a time when anti-Catholicism of the sort we now only
associate with the likes of Ian Paisley was normal throughout England.
If the biscuit was invented in 1861, it would have been at the height
of Garibaldi's fame, and in those days it wasn't unusual to name
things after famous and admired people.
Okay, but why Garibaldi particularly? Who else has had a biscuit named
after them? (Apart from the entire Bourbon dynasty).
I note that G had an item of clothing named after him - in the grand
tradition of Wellingtons, Cardigans and such. But a biscuit? And why
that particular *type* of biscuit?
|
I don't know, maybe the currants that go into the biscuits came from
Italy. It's difficult for us to imagine the impact that Garibaldi had
in 19th century England. Maybe we need to think of the popularity
Nelson Mandela has here. Or another way of thinking of it is to realise
that Catholicism in 19th century England was rather like Islam in
21st century England - tolerated, but viewed with considerable unease
partly because where it was dominant abroad it tended to be repressive
and supported extreme conservative regimes, and it was feared,
with some justification, to have aims of global domination. If a moderate
reforming figure were to storm through the Islamic world today, bringing down
the most extreme Islamic regimes and establishing a democratic
semi-secular Arabia, I'd think he'd gain a lot of popularity here.
Matthew Huntbach |
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Wood Avens
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:34:23 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
When I was a child (and I can'be that much older than you), surely all
biscuits had names. I can't think of one that was "just a biscuit".
Even today, there are remarkably few, and those mostly found in
assortment boxes. In the old days, they were delivered from the
grocer's in a paper bag; but the ones you'll find on the rolls on the
supermarket shelves today have the same names.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, John Dean wrote:
The Garibaldi biscuit, or squashed fly biscuit as it has been known to
generations of school-children, was, according to the usual reliable
sources, invented in 1861 and named after the Italian patriot. Some
on-line sources suggest the name was applied because Garibaldi had made
a visit to England and was well received. From what I can see, however,
his visit to England was in 1864 and he wasn't that well received
anyway.
|
Can you tell us why you thought so? Anyway, his worldwide fame
apparently began with his victories in 1860.
| Quote: |
Garibaldi was widely admired in 19th-century England. He was seen as
a liberal reformer who was pushing through the sort of reforms that
had already taken place in Britain. He was also seen as an enemy of
the papacy, at a time when anti-Catholicism of the sort we now only
associate with the likes of Ian Paisley was normal throughout England.
If the biscuit was invented in 1861, it would have been at the height
of Garibaldi's fame, and in those days it wasn't unusual to name things
after famous and admired people.
|
While I was looking for any clues to this question, I came across this,
on a page by the Nottingham football club fans. It supports the notion
of a certain Garibaldi mania in England:
http://u-reds.com/Fans/RobRaynhamPage.asp
The Garibaldi Reds
The Forest Football Club was formed in 1865. The
previous year there had been a triumphant visit to
the UK by Giuseppe Garibaldi which had captured the
public imagination. Garibaldi was an Italian general
and had been a prime mover in the unification of
Italy in 1861 - before then it had been for
centuries a series of Nation States (Lombardy,
Tuscany, Piedmont etc). Unification brought King
Emmanuel II to the throne of a united Italy and
Garibaldi achieved fame because of his role.
Garibaldi himself had the reputation of being a
daring and imaginative military tactician, winning
many battles with swift movements of his army from
one location to another. His army wore scarlet red
shirts and unsurprisingly were referred to as
Garibaldi's redshirts. The young men who formed the
Forest Football Club wanted in some way to associate
themselves with the daring, tactical imagination and
swiftness of Garibaldi and thus adopted red as the
club colour in honour of the man himself and his
brave redshirts. After the club's inaugural meeting
the Treasurer, Wm. Brown, was dispatched into the
town with sufficient funds to purchase a set of
scarlet red silk caps, with tassels, from Committee
member Chas. Daft's drapery store. From then on the
players wore these caps at matches to represent and
identify the Forest club. Thus did the colour red
become forever associated with Nottingham Forest
Football Club.
That bit about knowing the treasurer's name and the instructions makes
me feel this is based on documentation, not hot air -- um, oral
tradition.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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irwell
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:45:49 +0100, Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, John Dean wrote:
Matthew Huntbach wrote:
Garibaldi was widely admired in 19th-century England. He was seen as
a liberal reformer who was pushing through the sort of reforms that
had already taken place in Britain. He was also seen as an enemy of
the papacy, at a time when anti-Catholicism of the sort we now only
associate with the likes of Ian Paisley was normal throughout England.
If the biscuit was invented in 1861, it would have been at the height
of Garibaldi's fame, and in those days it wasn't unusual to name
things after famous and admired people.
Okay, but why Garibaldi particularly? Who else has had a biscuit named
after them? (Apart from the entire Bourbon dynasty).
I note that G had an item of clothing named after him - in the grand
tradition of Wellingtons, Cardigans and such. But a biscuit? And why
that particular *type* of biscuit?
I don't know, maybe the currants that go into the biscuits came from
Italy. It's difficult for us to imagine the impact that Garibaldi had
in 19th century England. Maybe we need to think of the popularity
Nelson Mandela has here. Or another way of thinking of it is to realise
that Catholicism in 19th century England was rather like Islam in
21st century England - tolerated, but viewed with considerable unease
partly because where it was dominant abroad it tended to be repressive
and supported extreme conservative regimes, and it was feared,
with some justification, to have aims of global domination. If a moderate
reforming figure were to storm through the Islamic world today, bringing down
the most extreme Islamic regimes and establishing a democratic
semi-secular Arabia, I'd think he'd gain a lot of popularity here.
Matthew Huntbach
|
Paris has a Garibaldi Boulevard. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On 11 Jul 2005, the Omrud wrote
| Quote: | irwell spake thusly:
Paris has a Garibaldi Boulevard.
Does it have squashed currants embedded in it?
|
That takes the biscuit.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
irwell spake thusly:
| Quote: | Paris has a Garibaldi Boulevard.
|
Does it have squashed currants embedded in it?
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Laura F. Spira
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Laura F. Spira wrote:
John Dean wrote:
The Garibaldi biscuit, or squashed fly biscuit as it has been known
to generations of school-children, was, according to the usual
reliable sources, invented in 1861 and named after the Italian
patriot. Some on-line sources suggest the name was applied because
Garibaldi had made a visit to England and was well received. From
what I can see, however, his visit to England was in 1864 and he
wasn't that well received anyway.
So - anyone confirm the biscuit was named after the famous Italian
General and American candle maker? (I'd be amazed if it wasn't).
Part two - Why? Why not the Lincoln biscuit, the Grant biscuit, the
Sherman biscuit?
Surely you've eaten a Lincoln biscuit?
http://www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com/biscuits/previous.php3?item=20
I've eaten many. But I didn't know they had a special name.
|
Doesn't *every* biscuit have a name? (I feel I'm wandering into Old
Possum territory here.)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
Wood Avens wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:34:23 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Laura F. Spira wrote:
Surely you've eaten a Lincoln biscuit?
http://www.nicecupofteaandasitdown.com/biscuits/previous.php3?item=20
I've eaten many. But I didn't know they had a special name.
When I was a child (and I can'be that much older than you), surely all
biscuits had names. I can't think of one that was "just a biscuit".
Even today, there are remarkably few, and those mostly found in
assortment boxes. In the old days, they were delivered from the
grocer's in a paper bag; but the ones you'll find on the rolls on the
supermarket shelves today have the same names.
|
Well, they had names in the sense that there were ways to identify the
kind of biscuit you wanted. But some of the names were uninspired,
uninspiring and, frankly, too generic to have any significance. I cite
here the "ginger biscuit" and the "shortbread biscuit". I see that the
Lincoln biscuit is a kind of shortbread, but I would never have needed
to identify them because I would never have to looked to lay hands on
one as long as there were visible alternatives. The "Lincoln" biscuit,
for me, could as easily be categorised as "the biscuit still on the
plate in a meeting after all the other biscuits have been eaten". Not to
say that no-one *would* eat it, bit the jammy dodgers, bourbons and pink
wafery things had to have gone first. There's another generic name - the
custard cream.
We used to get most of our biscuits via a neighbour who worked at
McVities where staff were allowed to bring out substandard product for a
nominal price. This may (or may not) be where the phrase "face like a
bag of broken biscuits" originated.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Pat Durkin
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
"Laura F. Spira" <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dau3b7$584$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
Laura F. Spira wrote:
John Dean wrote:
The Garibaldi biscuit, or squashed fly biscuit as it has been known
to generations of school-children, was, according to the usual
reliable sources, invented in 1861 and named after the Italian
patriot.
|
Garibaldi biscuit on Wikipedia:
. . .It consists of currants squashed between two thin, rectangular
biscuits - a currant sandwich. It has a golden brown, glazed appearance.
Garibaldi biscuits are also known by the dysphemically-inclined as squashed
fly biscuits, because the squashed fruit do look a bit like dead flies. . .
I couldn't find a very good picture of the Dutch windmill cookie, but I
would think these shortbread cookies would be familiar in UK. Many times
they had sliced almonds on them. This was just one brand:
"Bremner Inc. Issues Recall of Stop & Shop Brand Dutch Windmill Cookies."
That is manufactured in St. Louis, MO, but others can be imported.
There were many recipes, some with the correctly shaped cookie cutter, and
others with improvized [stet] (surprise! In AmE the word is spelled with
"ised") quarter rounds placed in a "pinwheel" .
We would buy a specific kind of ginger cookie called a "ginger snap", which
was quite spicy and crisp. It has amazed me to see German chefs on TV using
these as thickeners in soups and sauces. The other kind of ginger cookie,
to us children, had to be "gingerbread men (boys)", and were home made.
Peanut butter cookies weren't properly cooked (or bought) if they didn't
have the characteristic forked impression (most often crossed fork tines) to
press the ball of dough into an almost flat and round shape. These were
usually doughy/chewy, but could get a bit crisp if left too long in the
oven. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
Boron Elgar wrote:
| Quote: | On 10 Jul 2005 17:04:46 -0700, "Raymond S. Wise"
mplsray@my-deja.com
wrote:
Boron Elgar wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:37:59 +0100, "John Dean"
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
The Garibaldi biscuit, or squashed fly biscuit as it has been
known to generations of school-children, was, according to the
usual reliable sources, invented in 1861 and named after the
Italian patriot. Some on-line sources suggest the name was
applied
because Garibaldi had made a visit to England and was well
received. From what I can see, however, his visit to England was
in 1864 and he wasn't that well received anyway.
So - anyone confirm the biscuit was named after the famous
Italian
General and American candle maker? (I'd be amazed if it wasn't).
Part two - Why? Why not the Lincoln biscuit, the Grant biscuit,
the
Sherman biscuit?
If you folks would ditch the biscuits in favor of cookies, this
would not be a problem.
Too late. "Cookie" has already been accepted into British English,
but with the meaning restricted to "an American-style cookie,"
referring to such cookies as chocolate-chip cookies and
oatmeal-raisin cookies. (The same thing has happened in French. An
example of this can be seen in the French-dubbed version of Woody
Allen's *Small Time Crooks,* in which the character named Frenchy
bakes "cookies," not "biscuits.")
But who'd dream of naming a cookie after an Italian revolutionary?
|
Because (Ray O'Hara may not like this, but I'm not sure of his
precise position on post-Napoleonic Italy) he was a very popular
figure in Victorian England. Scout around, and be prepared for
astonishment at how many pubs etc were, and even are, named after
him.
The squashed-fly biscuit strikes a recent chord. For some reason I
decided last month that I wanted some, and skinflintily bought
Tesco's own brand. They were so seriously dull and minimally
curranted that I actually returned them and got my money back. I
repaired to the version offered by a Major Manufacturer, only to find
that they were exactly the same. Forty or more years had, it seemed,
amplified the proportion of fruit beyond reality. Thank God, ginger
nuts are still OK.
--
Mike. |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:40 am
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:10:22 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
| Quote: | Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, John Dean wrote:
The Garibaldi biscuit, or squashed fly biscuit as it has been known to
generations of school-children, was, according to the usual reliable
sources, invented in 1861 and named after the Italian patriot. Some
on-line sources suggest the name was applied because Garibaldi had made
a visit to England and was well received. From what I can see, however,
his visit to England was in 1864 and he wasn't that well received
anyway.
Can you tell us why you thought so? Anyway, his worldwide fame
apparently began with his victories in 1860.
Garibaldi was widely admired in 19th-century England. He was seen as
a liberal reformer who was pushing through the sort of reforms that
had already taken place in Britain. He was also seen as an enemy of
the papacy, at a time when anti-Catholicism of the sort we now only
associate with the likes of Ian Paisley was normal throughout England.
If the biscuit was invented in 1861, it would have been at the height
of Garibaldi's fame, and in those days it wasn't unusual to name things
after famous and admired people.
While I was looking for any clues to this question, I came across this,
on a page by the Nottingham football club fans. It supports the notion
of a certain Garibaldi mania in England:
http://u-reds.com/Fans/RobRaynhamPage.asp
The Garibaldi Reds
The Forest Football Club was formed in 1865. The
previous year there had been a triumphant visit to
the UK by Giuseppe Garibaldi which had captured the
public imagination. Garibaldi was an Italian general
and had been a prime mover in the unification of
Italy in 1861 - before then it had been for
centuries a series of Nation States (Lombardy,
Tuscany, Piedmont etc). Unification brought King
Emmanuel II to the throne of a united Italy and
Garibaldi achieved fame because of his role.
Garibaldi himself had the reputation of being a
daring and imaginative military tactician, winning
many battles with swift movements of his army from
one location to another. His army wore scarlet red
shirts and unsurprisingly were referred to as
Garibaldi's redshirts. The young men who formed the
Forest Football Club wanted in some way to associate
themselves with the daring, tactical imagination and
swiftness of Garibaldi and thus adopted red as the
club colour in honour of the man himself and his
brave redshirts. After the club's inaugural meeting
the Treasurer, Wm. Brown, was dispatched into the
town with sufficient funds to purchase a set of
scarlet red silk caps, with tassels, from Committee
member Chas. Daft's drapery store. From then on the
players wore these caps at matches to represent and
identify the Forest club. Thus did the colour red
become forever associated with Nottingham Forest
Football Club.
That bit about knowing the treasurer's name and the instructions makes
me feel this is based on documentation, not hot air -- um, oral
tradition.
|
This story is confirmed by a link
http://www.nottinghamforest.premiumtv.co.uk/page/History/0,,10308~64339,00.html
from Forest's official web site.
I don't seem to be able to cut and paste from that site.
--
Robin
Hoddesdon, England |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:05 am
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
In message <1121077370.633110.177770@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Will
<billrigby@hotmail.com> writes
| Quote: |
the Omrud wrote:
Charles Riggs spake thusly:
[...]
Again, I'd like to recommend Carr's Table Water biscuits. Far lower in
fat than the better known Ritz crackers, and just as good. Even better
with cheese on top, needless to say.
Good Man. Water biscuits are the very best accompaniment for strong
Cheddar. I love 'em.
You need to be careful with water biscuits. Some varieties (possibly
including Carr's) contain hydrogenated vegetable oil which, together
with its bastard love child partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, is a
Bad Thing and must on no account whatsoever pass your lips.
I find Nairn's Oatcakes are also a fine accompaniment to all cheeses,
particularly Keen's or Montgomery's Cheddar, the two very best makers.
Keen's is good, for sure, though I always suspect any cheesemaker |
(blessed though he may be) with a large enough production to get taken
up by a supermarket.
Do water biscuits have any other function than to carry cheese? Bath
Olivers are highly spoken of by the well-heeled.
ObBritishCheese: can there be two Great British Cheese Festivals this
year? The traditional Blenheim event is (was?) in September, where
Carr's water biscuits are freely dispensed:
http://www.oxford.gov.uk/tourism/events.cfm/action/detail/event/499/
but this may have been overtaken by an upstart in Cheltenham in October:
http://www.regionalfoodanddrink.co.uk/events/addnl_info.php?id=207
Bargains are to be found on the Sunday afternoons, when stallholders are
clearing out.
--
Paul
Experto credite. |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:20 am
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
In message <4jp5d19n32g0kue9uf4705cjpalgq02a2r@4ax.com>, Robin Bignall
<docrobin@ntlworld.com> writes
| Quote: | On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:10:22 +0200, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, John Dean wrote:
The Garibaldi biscuit, or squashed fly biscuit as it has been known to
generations of school-children, was, according to the usual reliable
sources, invented in 1861 and named after the Italian patriot. Some
on-line sources suggest the name was applied because Garibaldi had made
a visit to England and was well received. From what I can see, however,
his visit to England was in 1864 and he wasn't that well received
anyway.
Can you tell us why you thought so? Anyway, his worldwide fame
apparently began with his victories in 1860.
Garibaldi was widely admired in 19th-century England. He was seen as
a liberal reformer who was pushing through the sort of reforms that
had already taken place in Britain. He was also seen as an enemy of
the papacy, at a time when anti-Catholicism of the sort we now only
associate with the likes of Ian Paisley was normal throughout England.
If the biscuit was invented in 1861, it would have been at the height
of Garibaldi's fame, and in those days it wasn't unusual to name things
after famous and admired people.
While I was looking for any clues to this question, I came across this,
on a page by the Nottingham football club fans. It supports the notion
of a certain Garibaldi mania in England:
http://u-reds.com/Fans/RobRaynhamPage.asp
The Garibaldi Reds
The Forest Football Club was formed in 1865. The
previous year there had been a triumphant visit to
the UK by Giuseppe Garibaldi which had captured the
public imagination. Garibaldi was an Italian general
and had been a prime mover in the unification of
Italy in 1861 - before then it had been for
centuries a series of Nation States (Lombardy,
Tuscany, Piedmont etc). Unification brought King
Emmanuel II to the throne of a united Italy and
Garibaldi achieved fame because of his role.
Garibaldi himself had the reputation of being a
daring and imaginative military tactician, winning
many battles with swift movements of his army from
one location to another. His army wore scarlet red
shirts and unsurprisingly were referred to as
Garibaldi's redshirts. The young men who formed the
Forest Football Club wanted in some way to associate
themselves with the daring, tactical imagination and
swiftness of Garibaldi and thus adopted red as the
club colour in honour of the man himself and his
brave redshirts. After the club's inaugural meeting
the Treasurer, Wm. Brown, was dispatched into the
town with sufficient funds to purchase a set of
scarlet red silk caps, with tassels, from Committee
member Chas. Daft's drapery store. From then on the
players wore these caps at matches to represent and
identify the Forest club. Thus did the colour red
become forever associated with Nottingham Forest
Football Club.
That bit about knowing the treasurer's name and the instructions makes
me feel this is based on documentation, not hot air -- um, oral
tradition.
This story is confirmed by a link
http://www.nottinghamforest.premiumtv.co.uk/page/History/0,,10308~64339,00.html
from Forest's official web site.
I don't seem to be able to cut and paste from that site.
And the Forest red jerseys were later adopted by Arsenal, not widely |
known as the Garibaldi Gunners.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:05:45 +0100, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Do water biscuits have any other function than to carry cheese?
|
With only 0.4 g of protein and 3.0 g of carbohydrates per Carr's
biscuit, not a major one. Then again, there are only traces of
saturated fat and sodium in them, according to the label. Total fat is
5.9 g per 100 g of biscuits, quite low when comparing Carr's biscuits
to similar products. The sugar content per 100g -- more biscuits than
any normal man would have at a sitting -- is a mere 1.9 g; hardly
worth mentioning, is it?
--
Charles Riggs |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Garibaldi Biscuits |
|
|
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 00:20:03 +0100, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In message <4jp5d19n32g0kue9uf4705cjpalgq02a2r@4ax.com>, Robin Bignall
docrobin@ntlworld.com> writes
|
[details of how Nottingham Forest acquired their red shirts]
My father, who was a Forest season ticket holder all of his life,
believed that Arsenal had lent red shirts to Forest for one of
Forests's earliest games, and that they carried on using red in
gratitude. Sadly, or possibly luckily, he died in the 1960s long
before such things as web sites and facts could destroy his illusions.
But that version of the story, and the warm relation between Forest
and Arsenal, definitely existed round about 1950.
--
Robin
Hoddesdon, England |
|
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|
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| |
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