| Author |
Message |
Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:48 pm
Post subject: Nursing student vs. student nurse |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | Disagree all you want, but the term "nursing student" just isn't used
by people in the programs or people that have gone through the
programs.
[...]
But don't take my word for it, Coop. Google for "nursing students" and
examine the 653,000 results. I would estimate that 99.9% of them refer to
students enrolled in nursing programs.
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These Google results are interestingly inconsistent:
"i'm a nursing student" 748
"i'm a student nurse" 1130
"im a nursing student" 386
"im a student nurse" 387
"i am a nursing student" 5270
"i am a student nurse" 976
"we are nursing students" 15
"we are student nurses" 13
| Quote: | You have to deal some with real life, Areff. Walk into your local
hospital and ask some nurse in training if she's a "nursing student".
She'll just nod and say yes. Ask her, though, "What do you do?", and
she'll say "I'm a student nurse."
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Okay, but, as I was suggesting, isn't there a possible difference? I'm
not sure whether you tried to address that square on, as we say in LylE,
but I can see how a nursing student becomes a 'student nurse' once she's
actually doing some sort of internship (or whatever they call it in
nursing school or hospitals) in a hospital.
In other words: "nursing student" is a kind of academic status, while
"student nurse" is an occupational one.
Sort of like how med students are addressed as "Doctor So-and-so" when
they're in their third or fourth year and are doing rotations in
hospitals. Maybe they're called "student doctors" in that case, but of
course they're still med students until they're actually awarded an M.D. |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Nursing student vs. student nurse |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: | These Google results are interestingly inconsistent:
"i'm a nursing student" 748
"i'm a student nurse" 1130
"im a nursing student" 386
"im a student nurse" 387
"i am a nursing student" 5270
"i am a student nurse" 976
"we are nursing students" 15
"we are student nurses" 13
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Forgot one:
"we're nursing students" 4
"we're student nurses" 2
I haven't checked past-form usages like "I was a nursing student", which I
think would skew results towards "student nurse" if there's any
possibility of a language change here (probably not, but Coop was offering
up his wife as evidence, and I'm assuming that she's been a full-fledged
nurse for several decades now, and, I might add, a model for nurses the
world over). |
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Sara Lorimer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:42 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | But I haven't consciously
seen a nun for years - they've gone all modern now and wear plaid
skirts and sensible blouses so as not to frighten the horses.
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The nuns at my school had purple habits. Oooh la la!
--
SML |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:14 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:52:41 +0000 (UTC), Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:42:21 +0000 (UTC), Areff <me@privacy.net
wrote:
In AmE we do have "nursing schools", "nursing students", people who are
"studying nursing". Ask Coop.
Student nurses, not nursing students. Unless they are.
I disagree, Coop. "Student nurses" are probably a proper subset of
"nursing students". I don't know how various nursing programs work, but I
understand that many of them are four-year bachelor's degree programs.
Well, suppose the student doesn't get any actual 'in the field'
experience until her (or his) junior year (that's the normative third year
to you non-Americans). So it isn't until then that she (or he) is a
"student nurse".
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Disagree all you want, but the term "nursing student" just isn't used
by people in the programs or people that have gone through the
programs. As I said in my other post, there are RN programs and BSN
programs. Also, many of the BSNs go for MSNs.
The RN programs are through hospitals or through a program affiliated
with a hospital. The enrollee is a student nurse from day one. They
are typically three year programs, but some are now two year
accelerated programs. In these programs, the enrollee works on the
floor from almost the beginning of the program, and receives
additional classroom training.
The BSN programs require an affiliation with a university or college
that grants bachelor's degrees. They are typically four year programs
with minimum academic non-nursing subject credits. The enrollee is a
student when taking the academic programs, and a student nurse when
completing the nursing requirements. Not all programs are the same,
but in many the student will do the first year completely removed from
the hospital side of things.
It's a common feeling in the field that an freshly-out RN is much more
experienced in patient matters because all of his/her three years of
training is spent in direct contact with patients and in patient care.
The BSN, at the end of his/her four years has maybe two years of
similar experience. The BSN is also more likely to have specialized
in some specific area of nursing.
My wife, to earn her BSN, has a five year degree. Three from her RN
training, and two to get the "B". An RN can't pick up the "B" in one
year of academic studies. Some of the "academic" studies, BTW, are
courses in subjects like Nutrition which we wouldn't normally consider
to be "academic". "Academic", in this field, just means classroom and
not floor.
A word on "affilliated"...the Shands Teaching Hospital is part of the
University of Florida. A BSN student attends UofF for the "B" part
and works at Shands for the nursing part. University of Central
Florida has no hospital connected with it, but have an affiliation
with Orlando Regional Medical Center hospital for their nursing
program. A BSN from that program has a BSN from UCF and will refer to
ORMC only as where she did her affiliate training.
| Quote: | But don't take my word for it, Coop. Google for "nursing students" and
examine the 653,000 results. I would estimate that 99.9% of them refer to
students enrolled in nursing programs.
You have to deal some with real life, Areff. Walk into your local |
hospital and ask some nurse in training if she's a "nursing student".
She'll just nod and say yes. Ask her, though, "What do you do?", and
she'll say "I'm a student nurse." She's not going to bother
correcting you, and she's not going to shout "OY!". Unless she
happens to post in aue, she's not concerned with your terminology or
the arrangement of the words.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:14 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | R J Valentine wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote: ...
} Now, there are dozens of classifications of "nurses".
Uh oh! Now you've gone and wook up Skitt.
I couldn't remember who it was, but when I typed that I considered the
wooking factor. I still think it better reflects the way I would
utter the sentence aloud.
|
That aside, what is it that you meant? If you could replace your "Now" with
"See", then the comma was alright. If you meant "these days", the comma has
to go. Simple, really.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:20 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
Coop, you're basing this on what, your wife's experience of 30-35
years ago?
Sorry, I meant "40-45".
|
Let's take it back to 50 years ago -- that's when my beloved of the day was
one of the girls studying to become nurses at the UC Medical Center in San
Francisco. She had already put in a couple of years at Berkeley, as I
recall. Darn if I remember what she was called then, and how it all turned
out. I went into the Army, and she had married another by the time I came
back.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:29:08 +0000 (UTC), Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
Disagree all you want, but the term "nursing student" just isn't used
by people in the programs or people that have gone through the
programs.
[...]
But don't take my word for it, Coop. Google for "nursing students" and
examine the 653,000 results. I would estimate that 99.9% of them refer to
students enrolled in nursing programs.
You have to deal some with real life, Areff. Walk into your local
hospital and ask some nurse in training if she's a "nursing student".
She'll just nod and say yes. Ask her, though, "What do you do?", and
she'll say "I'm a student nurse."
Coop, you're basing this on what, your wife's experience of 30-35 years
ago? WADR, I don't think that's dispositive.
|
No, I'm basing it on a wide range of experience including decades
calling on hospitals and medical schools and being in daily contact
with nurses in those institutions. Salesmen don't always talk
business, you know. Part of being successful in sales is building up
personal relationships. If you go to lunch, or for coffee, or just
sit and have a casual conversation, you talk about things like this
with your customers.
Most of my time was spent with Operating Room Supervisors and
surgeons. Like anyone in any job, they bitch about how things aren't
like they used to be. I'd hear a sentence once a week that started
out something like "These student nurses today just aren't being
taught.....".
Why would you think what my wife did 30 years ago is the last of her
exposure to this? She's a working nurse (although not a hospital
nurse) and works with new hires with fresh degrees.
| Quote: | Nowadays (= TCE "Anymore") people say "nursing students".
|
And what do you base this on? How many nurses have *you* talked to in
the last 10 years? How many student nurses? What actual experience
have you had that leads you to be confident about what people say in
this field?
You're very quick to say something is said this way, or never said
this way, but you rarely offer any personal knowledge of what goes on.
Just to clarify...I don't disagree that (some) people say "nursing
students". But some people say "The London Times". Some people say a
person is schizophrenic when they mean the person's personality is not
exactly the same in all situations. Some people say they've walked
down the Avenue of Americas. Some people say that GWB is illiterate.
Some people say OJ was found innocent. There's no end to what some
people say when - if they wanted to be more correct - they'd say
something else.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:34 am
Post subject: Re: Nursing student vs. student nurse |
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:48:21 +0000 (UTC), Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Sort of like how med students are addressed as "Doctor So-and-so" when
they're in their third or fourth year and are doing rotations in
hospitals. Maybe they're called "student doctors" in that case, but of
course they're still med students until they're actually awarded an M.D.
|
They are not called Doctor because it is the correct thing to call
them. They are called Doctor because the person using the term
doesn't know they aren't a doctor.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:14:02 -0700, "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
R J Valentine wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote: ...
} Now, there are dozens of classifications of "nurses".
Uh oh! Now you've gone and wook up Skitt.
I couldn't remember who it was, but when I typed that I considered the
wooking factor. I still think it better reflects the way I would
utter the sentence aloud.
That aside, what is it that you meant? If you could replace your "Now" with
"See", then the comma was alright. If you meant "these days", the comma has
to go. Simple, really.
|
I understand what you're saying, Skitt, I really do. I don't agree,
but I understand. If you want to rush through the sentence, read it
without the comma. As I "hear" what I want to say, though, I want you
to pause for the effect that "now" is a different time and the comma
does that for me.
"Now things are different" and "Now, things are different" should be
heard by the reader as slightly different in emphasis. We do things
to written sentences visually to achieve effects. Where we can, we
add bold face, italics, underscore, and punctuation to achieve effect.
"Now things are different!" is the same use of a visual marker. So is
"Now things are different?". The four variations of the use of those
four words create different effects because of the visual markers.
When you say the comma "has to go", you are saying that what we write
should be a Dragnet of expression where we want just the facts. That,
to me, is dull writing.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | "Skitt" wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote:
R J Valentine wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote: ...
} Now, there are dozens of classifications of "nurses".
Uh oh! Now you've gone and wook up Skitt.
I couldn't remember who it was, but when I typed that I considered
the wooking factor. I still think it better reflects the way I
would utter the sentence aloud.
That aside, what is it that you meant? If you could replace your
"Now" with "See", then the comma was alright. If you meant "these
days", the comma has to go. Simple, really.
I understand what you're saying, Skitt, I really do. I don't agree,
but I understand. If you want to rush through the sentence, read it
without the comma. As I "hear" what I want to say, though, I want you
to pause for the effect that "now" is a different time and the comma
does that for me.
"Now things are different" and "Now, things are different" should be
heard by the reader as slightly different in emphasis. We do things
to written sentences visually to achieve effects. Where we can, we
add bold face, italics, underscore, and punctuation to achieve effect.
"Now things are different!" is the same use of a visual marker. So is
"Now things are different?". The four variations of the use of those
four words create different effects because of the visual markers.
When you say the comma "has to go", you are saying that what we write
should be a Dragnet of expression where we want just the facts. That,
to me, is dull writing.
|
I also understand what you are saying, and I disagree. When we are writing,
we our voices can't be heard, and punctuation is used to clarify meaning.
In this case, the absence of the comma is used to indicate that the "now" is
not a throwaway, but rather that it indicates the present. Without choosing
different words it would be difficult to make that distinction.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:08 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 05:20:19 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:42:21 +0000 (UTC), Areff <me@privacy.net
wrote:
the Omrud wrote:
I think it's extremely likely that the "sister" term has descended
from nursing nuns.
obAUE: UK English can use "nursing" without ever thinking about
breast feeding - it occurs to me to mention this because I try to
think in US English as well as UK when writing in AUE. Did the above
sentence give any US readers an uncomfortable image?
Maybe Chuck?
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With 'nursing nuns'? For sure, and I partially agree with Coop that
student nurses are not generally called 'nursing students'. When we
used to date them, for obvious reasons, back in the 60s, we generally
called them simply 'nurses'.
| Quote: | In AmE we do have "nursing schools", "nursing students", people who are
"studying nursing". Ask Coop.
Student nurses, not nursing students. Unless they are.
When my wife was a student nurse in the late 50s, hospital-trained
nurses became RNs (Registered Nurses) and university hospital trained
nurses became BSNs. The BSN took an extra year of academic studies
not related to nursing. My wife graduated as an RN, but went back to
school after the kids were out of high school and picked up her BSN.
Her degree, though, is in Health Care Management.
Now, there are dozens of classifications of "nurses".
|
The classification we always assumed the student variety fell into was
'those who will fuck you at the drop of a hat'. That appeared to be
the tradition no matter which university was under consideration,
although things may have changed.
--
Charles Riggs |
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Linz
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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"the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d2cf4e7425d57c3989c64@news.ntlworld.com...
| Quote: | Some "advanced" nursing roles are open only to those who have
gained the rank of Sister (I may be out of date here) such as
Health Visitor, Midwife.
|
Not the case. Once I had qualified as a nurse I could have done extra
training to become a midwife, as many of my friends did. And it has
always been possible to train as a midwife from direct entry, without
doing general nursing - the same is true of psychiatric and children's
nursing.
Other roles such as HV you need to have reached the equivalent of F
grade, but I have a feeling that ward sister is G grade.
Mind, I too am out of date. |
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Linz
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ighglFlc0psU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Except that it fails to explain why shift work somehow has to be
called "internal rotation", which I'd previously have assumed must
have something to do with assisted parturition. Or the feeling I
get when idiots arse about with the language I've been working hard
to learn all my life.
|
Internal rotation is where you rotate within a job - it could be
shifts, it could be within offices. External rotation is where you go
out to different, possibly unrelated sites. |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:00 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:10:37 +0100, "Linz" <spam@lindsayendell.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d2cf4e7425d57c3989c64@news.ntlworld.com...
Some "advanced" nursing roles are open only to those who have
gained the rank of Sister (I may be out of date here) such as
Health Visitor, Midwife.
Not the case. Once I had qualified as a nurse I could have done extra
training to become a midwife, as many of my friends did. And it has
always been possible to train as a midwife from direct entry, without
doing general nursing - the same is true of psychiatric and children's
nursing.
Other roles such as HV you need to have reached the equivalent of F
grade, but I have a feeling that ward sister is G grade.
Mind, I too am out of date.
One large NHS teaching hospital, late 1990s: Female nurses who were |
employees of the hospital wore the same sort of dress (a sort of light
blue / white checkerboard pattern) up to sister; sisters wore dark
blue. They were distinguishable by the colour of their belts:
white trainee
green state enrolled D?
blue state registered E
red senior SRN F
dark blue sister G
Agency nurses wore white. Male nurses and charge nurses also wore
white tunics, with the grading colours on epaulettes.
I spent a long time in the two private wards in that hospital, so I
got to know the half-dozen or so red belts quite well over four years,
and all of them eventually went on to specialised training for other,
different branches of nursing, rather than to become sisters.
--
Robin |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:08 am
Post subject: Re: Guidance on when nurses are referred to as "sister" |
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On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:12:00 +0100, "Linz" <spam@lindsayendell.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ighglFlc0psU1@individual.net...
Except that it fails to explain why shift work somehow has to be
called "internal rotation", which I'd previously have assumed must
have something to do with assisted parturition. Or the feeling I
get when idiots arse about with the language I've been working hard
to learn all my life.
Internal rotation is where you rotate within a job - it could be
shifts, it could be within offices. External rotation is where you go
out to different, possibly unrelated sites.
Now you have broken the Australian Lout's heart. |
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