| Author |
Message |
Alan Jones
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:45 am
Post subject: Re: Me and my friends? |
|
|
"Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation')"
<antonchekhov@unclevanya.com.ru> wrote in message
news:1120326209.83832a144753878e78807d46a0a19dd2@teranews...
| Quote: |
Alan Jones wrote:
"My friend and I" as subject is not unnatural or strange to a native
speaker's ear. It's not at all the same as "Who did this deed?" - "It was
I", which does sound oldfashioned even to educated speakers.
Even though it is basically the same rule?
|
It's not quite the same rule, is it? In one case, "I" is subject, in the
other "I" is complement. It's not clear that the complement has to be in the
same case as the subject, especially in a language where so few words show
case and thereby establish a rule. In Latin, of course, the two do match,
and that certainly colours my initial reaction to "It was me", since I
learned Latin grammar before I had any formal grasp of English grammar. But
French has royal precedent for "L'état c'est moi", and French is more
closely related to Latin than is English.
As regards everyday usage, the sentence pattern is significant. In "My
friends and I" as subject, "I" is in the usual subject position, before the
verb, and if it were not for the "My friend and" every native speaker would,
I suppose, have no doubt that "I" must be right, even if he or she couldn't
explain why. In "It was I", "I" is in the position very often taken by the
object ("He hit me" and so forth), and to many people "I" just feels
uncomfortable there.
Personally I feel awkward about both "It was me" and "It was I", and in
written English or a formal speech I'd try to find some alternative
phrasing. In ordinary speech I unhesitatingly say "me".
Alan Jones |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CDB
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:48 am
Post subject: Re: Me and my friends? |
|
|
"mUs1Ka" <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> wrote in message
news:F8Axe.61035$G8.36286@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: | Alan OBrien wrote:
kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:1120043329.393708.18310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language
learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
Thanks in anticipation for any advice
You should always avoid the ridiculous "and I" construction.
"Me" is always best:
""Me and my friends went down the pub..."
"My friends and me went down the pub...."
So, if your friends stayed at home, it would be: "Me went down the
pub..."?
|
Anyway, shouldn't that be "went down *at* the pub"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:02 am
Post subject: Re: Me and my friends? |
|
|
Alan OBrien wrote:
| Quote: | kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:1120043329.393708.18310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language
learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
Thanks in anticipation for any advice
You should always avoid the ridiculous "and I" construction.
"Me" is always best:
""Me and my friends went down the pub..."
"My friends and me went down the pub...."
|
That's just inverted snobbery. "Me and my friends went" and "My
friends and me went" are _not_ always best. And if the kind of person
who makes pronouncements in English-usage newsgroups makes a point of
saying it, he should reflect that his working-class acquaintances
will, I suspect, generally be too polite to say he's being
patronising. But they may make a mental note that he's not to be
trusted, and can never be a real mate. His middle-class acquaintances
may just be too polite to say he's being pretentious.
--
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Raymond S. Wise
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Me and my friends? |
|
|
Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | kriskumar2002@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:1120043329.393708.18310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Do you think 'me and my friends' is acceptable in a language learning
aid meant for children of ten or eleven years?
Or should I opt for grammatical but stilted "my friends and I"?
You seem not to have understood:
Personal pronoun I is the nominative case
i.e. is grammatically correct as the subject of a verb.
Personal pronoun me is the accusative case
i.e. is grammatically correct for the object of a verb.
The use of either where the other is required
is simply an error.
Neither is "grammatical but stilted." In some
sentences each is correct, in others not. The
missing element you need to provide for child
learners is probably whether their mother tongue
makes a distinction between nominative and
accusative case for personal pronouns.
|
If it were merely a question of traditional rules concerning case, then
"It's I" would be grammatically correct and questions of actual usage
would not come into it. But there's more to idiomatic English than the
traditional rules of case: "It's I" is ugly English, no matter how much
it follows the traditional rules of case, and "It's me" is perfectly
acceptable informal speech for a speaker of a standard dialect of
English.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
meirman
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:01 am
Post subject: Re: Me and my friends? |
|
|
In alt.english.usage on Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:47:42 GMT Gary Eickmeier
<geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> posted:
| Quote: |
Mike Lyle wrote:
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Eddie McNarry wrote:
It's quite wrong to call "my friends and me" a "very informal
colloquial form." As the direct or indirect object on a verb,
or as the object of a preposition, "my friends and me" is
perfectly correct formal English. In such cases, "my friends
and I" would not be informal, but grammatically incorrect.
You don't say? Thanks for telling me.
Yes, he does say. What's your point?
You, too, think I might not have known? But the question was about
the form used as subject: I hardly think it would have been asked
otherwise. Edward was kind enough to tell me the form to be used as
object. Not wishing to disappoint him, I courteously expressed
surprise and gratitude. What's your point?
The question was not about the form used as subject or object; it was
just about the form itself. That's the problem. The guy didn't seem to
understand that the case is what determines which form is used.
Your statement was:
"And it's quite wrong, I think, to call "my friends and I" "stilted".
"My friends and me" is a very informal colloquial form, but that
doesn't make the alternative stilted, the way "It is I" usually is."
You, too, do not make any reference to case. So Eddie was correcting
you, and he was right.
Gary Eickmeier
|
I think everyone was right. I don't think there is any chance the OP
wasn't talking about subjects.
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage
--
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Town NW of Pittsburgh Pa. 0 to 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 22 years |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in