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HB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:31 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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John of Aix wrote:
The second site makes a serious error. "mannequin" does not come from
Dutch but from Flemish 'manneken' (Flemish diminutive for 'man').
The Dutch don't have diminutives ending on 'ken', while Flemish has
lots of them.
- Herman -
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:12:33 UTC, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Erick Andrews wrote:
My latest (2004) "Concise OED" just says of Germanic origin.
A four letter word,
A four letter word..
Will never let you down.
It might rhyme with 'cookbook' or 'Richard the Third',
That wonderful one, two, three,
Four letter word!
Paul Burke
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I know "Richard the Third". What's a "cookbook"? Is it the
same as a "butchers"?
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:28:00 UTC, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Erick Andrews wrote:
snip |
| Quote: | Even if you might get a doctoral thesis on the word, many would
disagree. That kind of makes it mysterious, but we all know -- in
whatever context -- it means. In Dutch, too.
Thank you for your response. But what the devil has to do with it.......
Arthur
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Without digging out Eric Partridge's "Origins" where I believe is where
I the found the devil reference, it seems logical to me: "the devil to you"
or "go f*** yourself", as similar expletives.
Maybe someone else here could show a more definitive connection.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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HB <hb@fakemail.net> wrote:
Dutch and Flemish are the same language.
Axel |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:34 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:40:38 GMT, axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
The -kin diminutive evidently goes back to Middle English. We see it
both in common words - napkin, catkin, lambkin etc and in surnames -
Jenkins, Watkins, Tompkins, Parkinson etc. I assume the "Middle Dutch"
origin given in Dictionaries is a pretty broad definition.
--
Phil C. |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:31:31 GMT, "HB" <hb@fakemail.net> wrote:
| Quote: | The second site makes a serious error. "mannequin" does not come from
Dutch but from Flemish 'manneken' (Flemish diminutive for 'man').
The Dutch don't have diminutives ending on 'ken', while Flemish has
lots of them.
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The 'Van Dale Groot woordenboek der Nederlandse taal' disagrees with
you. Viz:
manneke
het; -s
vormvariant: manneken
1 mannetje
1 (gewestelijk) mannekes maken
onnodige plichtplegingen maken
Giles |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Saturday, in article
nOive.11885$rh6.8854@fe58.usenetserver.com
plc@postmark.net "Arthur" wrote:
I have another question, but I'm not sure whether this is the right
group to ask it. If it isn't , please tell me.
Here is my question:
There are not so many words of Dutch origin in the English language.
Some, I believe, are:
polder - dyke (dike ?) - Santa Claus (in American English) = from
Dutch 'Sinterklaas' , but I am not sure about the last one.
Is there anyone who knows others?
Poppycock!
What do you mean "poppycock"? |
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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Erick Andrews wrote:
| Quote: | I know "Richard the Third". What's a "cookbook"? Is it the
same as a "butchers"?
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Never explain... oh, well.. no, it's not 'official' rhyming slang. Just
something that rhymes with it. And is rude.
Paul Burke |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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"HB" <hb@fakemail.net> wrote in message
news:nuYve.6673$jO.191@biebel.telenet-ops.be...
When I lived in Dutch Brabant it was quite normal to form dimunitives
with -ke rather than -tje. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
| Quote: | Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
On Saturday, in article
nOive.11885$rh6.8854@fe58.usenetserver.com
plc@postmark.net "Arthur" wrote:
I have another question, but I'm not sure whether this is the right
group to ask it. If it isn't , please tell me.
Here is my question:
There are not so many words of Dutch origin in the English language.
Some, I believe, are:
polder - dyke (dike ?) - Santa Claus (in American English) =
from Dutch 'Sinterklaas' , but I am not sure about the last one.
Is there anyone who knows others?
Poppycock!
What do you mean "poppycock"?
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pappekak
--
John Briggs |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
On Saturday, in article
nOive.11885$rh6.8854@fe58.usenetserver.com
plc@postmark.net "Arthur" wrote:
I have another question, but I'm not sure whether this is the right
group to ask it. If it isn't , please tell me.
Here is my question:
There are not so many words of Dutch origin in the English language.
Some, I believe, are:
polder - dyke (dike ?) - Santa Claus (in American English) =
from Dutch 'Sinterklaas' , but I am not sure about the last one.
Is there anyone who knows others?
Poppycock!
What do you mean "poppycock"?
pappekak
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Sorry, I misunderstood - I didn't realise you were answering the
question. I thought you were making a disparaging comment.
My apoligies.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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HB
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
| Quote: | The second site makes a serious error. "mannequin" does not come
from Dutch but from Flemish 'manneken' (Flemish diminutive for
'man'). The Dutch don't have diminutives ending on 'ken', while
Flemish has lots of them.
Dutch and Flemish are the same language.
|
That is not entirely true. The "Nederlandse Taalunie" (Dutch language
union) makes a distinction between written and spoken language. It
states that the written language is more or less the same in the
Netherlands and Flanders (even though there are frequent differences in
vocabulary and syntax).
However, as for spoken language the Taalunie states there is no single
Dutch language. Instead, there are three substandards:
* Dutch: standard spoken in the Netherlands
* Flemish: standard spoken in Flanders
* Surinam Dutch: standard spoken in Suriname
I could go on giving you arguments, but I'll stick to this for now.
- Herman - |
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HB
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:49 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | "HB" <hb@fakemail.net> wrote in message
news:nuYve.6673$jO.191@biebel.telenet-ops.be...
John of Aix wrote:
Is there anyone who knows others?
Try this. There are lots
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Dutch_derivations
and this
http://www.krysstal.com/borrow_dutch.html
The second site makes a serious error. "mannequin" does not come
from Dutch but from Flemish 'manneken' (Flemish diminutive for
'man'). The Dutch don't have diminutives ending on 'ken', while
Flemish has lots of them.
When I lived in Dutch Brabant it was quite normal to form dimunitives
with -ke rather than -tje.
|
That is true. Some examples (Flemish versus Dutch):
meiske vs meisje (girl)
vrouwke vs vrouwtje (little woman
poeske vs poesje (kitten)
and many many more...
- Herman - |
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Arthur
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | "HB" <hb@fakemail.net> wrote in message
news:nuYve.6673$jO.191@biebel.telenet-ops.be...
John of Aix wrote:
Is there anyone who knows others?
Try this. There are lots
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Dutch_derivations
and this
http://www.krysstal.com/borrow_dutch.html
The second site makes a serious error. "mannequin" does not come from
Dutch but from Flemish 'manneken' (Flemish diminutive for 'man').
The Dutch don't have diminutives ending on 'ken', while Flemish has
lots of them.
When I lived in Dutch Brabant it was quite normal to form dimunitives
with -ke rather than -tje.
That's correct The Brabant and Limburg dialects ( both southern Holland, |
so close to Flanders) generally use the diminutive -ke:
manneke (little man) - meiske (little girl) - stukske (little piece), etc. |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Dutch words in English language? |
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"HB" <hb@fakemail.net> wrote in message
news:2Xgwe.9861$jO.3292@biebel.telenet-ops.be...
| Quote: | axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
The second site makes a serious error. "mannequin" does not come
from Dutch but from Flemish 'manneken' (Flemish diminutive for
'man'). The Dutch don't have diminutives ending on 'ken', while
Flemish has lots of them.
Dutch and Flemish are the same language.
That is not entirely true. The "Nederlandse Taalunie" (Dutch language
union) makes a distinction between written and spoken language. It
states that the written language is more or less the same in the
Netherlands and Flanders (even though there are frequent differences in
vocabulary and syntax).
However, as for spoken language the Taalunie states there is no single
Dutch language. Instead, there are three substandards:
* Dutch: standard spoken in the Netherlands
* Flemish: standard spoken in Flanders
* Surinam Dutch: standard spoken in Suriname
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What about the flavour(s) spoken in Indonesia, not that they
speak much Dutch there these days - too many colonial
hang-ups - or in the Antilles? |
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