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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:23:48 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The Dutch form of "Prince of Orange" isn't particularly relevant, as Orange
isn't (wasn't) Dutch-speaking 
|
True. At the time the 'House of Orange' was founded in Vaucluse, the
local language of the powerful was Old Low Franconian. While not
Dutch, it was closer to modern Low Germanic languages like Dutch than,
say, French.
Here's an example of OLF from the 11th century:
hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase hic enda thu wat unbidan we
nu
all the birds have begun nests except for you and me -- what are we
waiting for?
| Quote: | The title was of particular importance to his great-grandfather, William the
Silent, of course.
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And his predecessors, all the way back to the sainted Guilhelm in
Charlemagne's time.
Giles
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:12 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:40:58 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Giles Todd wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Sure. Just ask any Muslim.
.... and ask the Dutch why ....
|
OK. Why are all Muslims resident in the Netherlands held to be
personally responsible for Theo van Gogh's murder by one lunatic?
Why were Muslim schools and mosques set on fire as a response? Why
are mosques (Rotterdam's last week) still being set on fire?
Why are the Dutch currently in the process of expelling ~20,000
refugees?
Waarom?
It's like a slow-motion version of Kristallnacht. I just don't buy
this Dutch self-image of being 'nice'. It doesn't fit with the facts,
even without bringing Srebrenica into the argument.
When Harry Potter bangs on about 'Dutch values', is he talking about
the values of those who protected Anne Frank, or the values of those
who shopped her to the Gestapo?
Giles
--
Who lives near Haarlemmermeerstation, an assembly point for Jews in
the 1940s, where they were taken by special night-tram to Centraal
Station for further transportation eastward. "Heldhaftig,
Vastberaden, Barmhartig" my arse. And don't mention Vught. |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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"Giles Todd" <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote in message
news:2tmmb1dg2m8pkisncq17vgtlrmgm1dfo6c@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
When Harry Potter bangs on about 'Dutch values', is he talking about
the values of those who protected Anne Frank, or the values of those
who shopped her to the Gestapo?
|
I can't speak for Harry Potter but wasn't Anne Frank shopped
by a burglar in exchange for his freedom/life? Reprehensible but
understandable, and hardly your average Nederlander.
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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"Giles Todd" <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote in message
news:2tmmb1dg2m8pkisncq17vgtlrmgm1dfo6c@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:40:58 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
OK. Why are all Muslims resident in the Netherlands held to be
personally responsible for Theo van Gogh's murder by one lunatic?
|
You are making the same mistake as you are claiming that the Dutch
are making.
Just because one or a few criminals behave in a particular way
does not make all people in that particular group guilty, or "not nice". |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | You are making the same mistake as you are claiming that the Dutch
are making.
Just because one or a few criminals behave in a particular way
does not make all people in that particular group guilty, or "not nice".
|
I seem to recall that their current government got in on a wave of anti-
immigrant panic following Fortuyn's murder, and that one reason for the
murder was his ever-so-nice racism. It's not 'a few criminals', it's a
substantial part of the population.
Having said that, if that makes the Dutch nasty, then the support for
the BNP here makes the British nasty.
And to get back on topic, there are also a few positive connotations to
Dutch, as in "my old dutch".
Paul Burke |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:47:50 +0100, "Nick Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | You are making the same mistake as you are claiming that the Dutch
are making.
Just because one or a few criminals behave in a particular way
does not make all people in that particular group guilty, or "not nice".
|
Of course it doesn't. It's just a shame that the Dutch government,
its officials, and the local populace act as though it does.
A couple of days after Theo van Gogh was murdered last November, I
witnessed a Muslim woman attempting to get on a tram in Surinameplein
(line 1) and being jeered off by the rest of the passengers (this
particular Surinameplein is in Amsterdam, supposedly a 'cosmopolitan'
and 'tolerant' city). With appropriate adjustments as to language,
costume and religion, the scene would not have been out of place in
Berlin in 1938.
An assumption of moral superiority by anyone gets up my nose. Here,
it is endemic (it was slightly damaged by the findings of the
Srebrenica enquiry, but soon reasserted itself thanks to Pim Fortuyn
and his populist ilk). Motes and beams, etc.
Right now, I don't think that the Dutch are nice, even though I used
to ten years ago. I think that they are in the grip of a moral panic,
brought on by recent economic misfortune and exacerbated by populists
who have managed the trick of making their odious opinions
respectable, provided that they are cloaked in terms of 'culture'.
Even 'nice' people do nasty things in such circumstances, but that's
no excuse. Generalized assertions of 'niceness' in the face of the
facts (such as that made by the original poster and reinforced by his
response to my initial comment) should not go unchallenged.
Giles |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:44:34 +0100, "Nick Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | I can't speak for Harry Potter but wasn't Anne Frank shopped
by a burglar in exchange for his freedom/life? Reprehensible but
understandable, and hardly your average Nederlander.
|
Do you have a source for that information? I cannot find anything to
substantiate it.
Here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2097972.stm the betrayal
is attributed to an anonymous telephone call. This is only one of
many sources (including the Netherlands Institute for War
Documentation) with the same story. Naif as I am, it hardly seems
likely that someone bargaining for his life would pop out of the
police cells to make an anonymous call to the Amsterdam Gestapo's
Jewish Division and then pop back to the cells to complete the deal.
But you may have a better source than any I can find. If so then I am
sure that the folk here: http://www.riod.nl/engels/english.html would
love to hear from you.
Giles |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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"Paul Burke" <paul@scazon.com> wrote in message
news:3i2016Fjeaq4U1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Nick Wagg wrote:
You are making the same mistake as you are claiming that the Dutch
are making.
Just because one or a few criminals behave in a particular way
does not make all people in that particular group guilty, or "not nice".
I seem to recall that their current government got in on a wave of anti-
immigrant panic following Fortuyn's murder, and that one reason for the
murder was his ever-so-nice racism. It's not 'a few criminals', it's a
substantial part of the population.
|
Anti-immigrant panic is hardly a fair comparison with Kristalnacht. |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:43:08 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | And to get back on topic, there are also a few positive connotations to
Dutch, as in "my old dutch".
|
According to Partridge, that was probably coined c1885 by Albert
Chevalier (a Cockney-style music hall entertainer). He explained it by
the resemblance of his wife's face to an old Dutch clock.
--
Phil C. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Giles Todd wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:23:48 GMT, "John Briggs"
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The Dutch form of "Prince of Orange" isn't particularly relevant, as
Orange isn't (wasn't) Dutch-speaking :-)
True. At the time the 'House of Orange' was founded in Vaucluse, the
local language of the powerful was Old Low Franconian. While not
Dutch, it was closer to modern Low Germanic languages like Dutch than,
say, French.
Here's an example of OLF from the 11th century:
hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase hic enda thu wat unbidan we
nu
all the birds have begun nests except for you and me -- what are we
waiting for?
|
I'll need some convincing that anyone spoke Old Low Franconian in Vaucluse -
rather than, say, Old Frankish.
| Quote: | The title was of particular importance to his great-grandfather,
William the Silent, of course.
And his predecessors, all the way back to the sainted Guilhelm in
Charlemagne's time.
|
But the importance for William the Silent was that, as a sovereign prince,
he could legitimately wage war on his enemies - in this case Philip II,
despite being a vassal of Philip for his lands in the Netherlands.
--
John Briggs |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:44 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:51:02 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'll need some convincing that anyone spoke Old Low Franconian in Vaucluse -
rather than, say, Old Frankish.
|
Fine. Now, was Old Frankish a Germanic or a Romance language?
| Quote: | But the importance for William the Silent was that, as a sovereign prince,
he could legitimately wage war on his enemies - in this case Philip II,
despite being a vassal of Philip for his lands in the Netherlands.
|
Philip II disagreed.
Giles |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:53 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Giles Todd wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:51:02 GMT, "John Briggs"
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I'll need some convincing that anyone spoke Old Low Franconian in
Vaucluse - rather than, say, Old Frankish.
Fine. Now, was Old Frankish a Germanic or a Romance language?
|
Well, quite - which raises doubts as to how many people actually spoke it in
Vaucluse. Not that I have the foggiest what Burgundians spoke, anyway.
| Quote: | But the importance for William the Silent was that, as a sovereign
prince, he could legitimately wage war on his enemies - in this case
Philip II, despite being a vassal of Philip for his lands in the
Netherlands.
Philip II disagreed.
|
Judgement wasn't Philip's strong point. But everyone, on all sides, behaved
pretty appallingly - except for William.
--
John Briggs |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:14 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:53:12 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Well, quite - which raises doubts as to how many people actually spoke it in
Vaucluse. Not that I have the foggiest what Burgundians spoke, anyway.
|
A Germanic language now referred to as 'Burgundian', apparently. It
had been extinct for around 300 years by the time of Charlemagne,
Guilhelm and the traditional founding of the House of Orange. But,
whatever. I can't keep up with the rate at which the goalposts move
in this subthread, so I'm dipping out.
Giles |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Friday, in article
<d9gdl3$479$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>
naw@transcendata.com "Nick Wagg" wrote:
| Quote: | "Giles Todd" <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote in message
news:2tmmb1dg2m8pkisncq17vgtlrmgm1dfo6c@4ax.com...
When Harry Potter bangs on about 'Dutch values', is he talking about
the values of those who protected Anne Frank, or the values of those
who shopped her to the Gestapo?
I can't speak for Harry Potter but wasn't Anne Frank shopped
by a burglar in exchange for his freedom/life? Reprehensible but
understandable, and hardly your average Nederlander.
|
I am given to understand that when Pia Zadora (sp?) appeared in a stage
play about Anne Frank (for which her long-suffering millionaire husband
had put up the money), the audience was so unimpressed by her acting
skills that THEY denounced her to the Nazis when the latter arrived :-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:06 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote:
| Quote: | OK. Why are all Muslims resident in the Netherlands held to be
personally responsible for Theo van Gogh's murder by one lunatic?
Why were Muslim schools and mosques set on fire as a response? Why
are mosques (Rotterdam's last week) still being set on fire?
Why are the Dutch currently in the process of expelling ~20,000
refugees?
Waarom?
|
Waarom niet?
| Quote: | It's like a slow-motion version of Kristallnacht. I just don't buy
this Dutch self-image of being 'nice'. It doesn't fit with the facts,
even without bringing Srebrenica into the argument.
When Harry Potter bangs on about 'Dutch values', is he talking about
the values of those who protected Anne Frank, or the values of those
who shopped her to the Gestapo?
|
The Dutch reputation for tolerance is mainly based on commercial
considerations. This is why it exhibits itself in such places as
Amsterdam, formerly a major trading centre - the philosophy being
'we will leave you alone as long as you leave us alone'. Hence
allowing Dutch Catholics to celebrate Mass in private (an example
being the church of Ons' Lieve Heer op Solder) and even Jews to
settle in the city.
But Amsterdam is not the Netherlands and indeed many Dutch people
regard it as a vile place.
Many of the Dutch are fed up with having immigrants who do not
accept their values and seek to impose different ones. If the
immigrants do not accept Dutch society then they should leave.
Axel |
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