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Message |
Arthur
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:00 pm
Post subject: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk like
a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite a
number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Arthur
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
| There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
| Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
| expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk like
| a Dutch uncle'.
| I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite a
| number of these negative expressions.
| We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that ;-)
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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"Arthur" <plc@postmark.net> wrote in message
news:gaeue.19565$fu1.15730@fe75.usenetserver.com...
| Quote: | There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk like
a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite a
number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
|
You, the Dutch, are wonderful people, and I should know;
I lived in Eindhoven for five years.
I believe that most of these phrases either date from the Anglo-Dutch
wars and trade conflicts of the 17th century, or arose later but are
mirrored on the earlier coinages.
It is not that the Dutch are singled out. We talk about French leave,
kisses, letters,...Spanish fly, German measles, Scotch mist, etc.
Originally some of these phrases were meant in a slightly derogatory
sense probably because of colonial rivalry or xenophobia in
times gone by.
Many, however, hint at something exotic or different, or risqué.
These days the negative meanings have largely been forgotten
and they have just become everyday phrases. We are all far
too politically correct to intend any real offence and any
leg-pulling is meant entirely light-heartedly.
Anyway, I believe that many of our continental cousins use
similarly slightly derogatory terms based around the English.
After all, we were known as Perfidious Albion at one time.
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk
like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are
quite a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that 
|
I think that will come as news to the Dutch 
--
John Briggs |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
| Quote: | There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk like
a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite a
number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
|
"Dutch" once had a much broader meaning - as in Deutsch. (I believe
this survives in the USA in "Pennsylvania Dutch".) Partridge gives
"Dutchman" as nautical slang for a German or "any North European
seaman except a Finn" into the C20th.
The nationalities that were most frequently in contact tended to
become the butt of slang - perhaps especially if there'd been rivalry.
Being isolated, Brits hadn't got as many neighbours to insult as
mainland European countries. Partridge also has plenty of unflattering
terms based on "Scotch", "Welsh", "Irish", "French" and "Spanish" -
but almost nothing for, say, "Italian", "Swedish" or "Swiss". I expect
"English" features in the old slang of England's neighbours.
"Dutch" expressions that survive don't seem to be used to refer to
real Dutch people - they're just expressions.
--
Phil C. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Arthur wrote:
| Quote: | There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk
like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite
a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
|
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
Is giving too little and asking too much;
With equal protection the French are content
So we'll lay on Dutch bottoms just twenty percent.
--
John Briggs |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
| There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
| Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
| expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk like
| a Dutch uncle'.
| I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite a
| number of these negative expressions.
| We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that ;-)
At the time of the Spanish Armada the Dutch were involved in a national |
rebellion against the Catholic Spanish monarchy. They recceived quite a
lot of help from English Protestants. Indeed this was one of the many
reasons for the Armada.
The hostility between the English and the Dutch dates from the next
century when there was constant rivalry between the Dutch East India
Company and the English East India Company for the East India trade.
During the Commonealth period this even led to a war between the English
and the Dutch (settled in 1654 IIRC).
this period didn't last very long and in 1688 teh English parliament
even invited the Statthalter (a sort of aristocratic president) of
Holland (I'm not certain of his exact title) to become King William III.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
| Quote: | Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk
like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are
quite a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that ;-)
At the time of the Spanish Armada the Dutch were involved in a
national rebellion against the Catholic Spanish monarchy. They
recceived quite a lot of help from English Protestants. Indeed this
was one of the many reasons for the Armada.
The hostility between the English and the Dutch dates from the next
century when there was constant rivalry between the Dutch East India
Company and the English East India Company for the East India trade.
During the Commonealth period this even led to a war between the
English and the Dutch (settled in 1654 IIRC).
this period didn't last very long and in 1688 teh English parliament
even invited the Statthalter (a sort of aristocratic president) of
Holland (I'm not certain of his exact title) to become King William
III.
|
He was Prince of Orange :-)
Here's a trick question: William of Orange versus James II - who did the
Pope support?
--
John Briggs |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:13 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | After all, we were known as Perfidious Albion at one time.
|
Still are mate, the French haven't yet seen any reason to change their
mind on that one. |
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Arthur
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:37 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk
like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are
quite a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that ;-)
At the time of the Spanish Armada the Dutch were involved in a
national rebellion against the Catholic Spanish monarchy. They
recceived quite a lot of help from English Protestants. Indeed this
was one of the many reasons for the Armada.
The hostility between the English and the Dutch dates from the next
century when there was constant rivalry between the Dutch East India
Company and the English East India Company for the East India trade.
During the Commonealth period this even led to a war between the
English and the Dutch (settled in 1654 IIRC).
this period didn't last very long and in 1688 teh English parliament
even invited the Statthalter (a sort of aristocratic president) of
Holland (I'm not certain of his exact title) to become King William
III.
He was Prince of Orange :-)
Here's a trick question: William of Orange versus James II - who did the
Pope support?
|
I'm sorry, I haven't the foggiest idea .....
Arthur |
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Arthur
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | "Arthur" <plc@postmark.net> wrote in message
news:gaeue.19565$fu1.15730@fe75.usenetserver.com...
There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk like
a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite a
number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
You, the Dutch, are wonderful people, and I should know;
I lived in Eindhoven for five years.
I believe that most of these phrases either date from the Anglo-Dutch
wars and trade conflicts of the 17th century, or arose later but are
mirrored on the earlier coinages.
It is not that the Dutch are singled out. We talk about French leave,
kisses, letters,...Spanish fly, German measles, Scotch mist, etc.
Originally some of these phrases were meant in a slightly derogatory
sense probably because of colonial rivalry or xenophobia in
times gone by.
Many, however, hint at something exotic or different, or risqué.
These days the negative meanings have largely been forgotten
and they have just become everyday phrases. We are all far
too politically correct to intend any real offence and any
leg-pulling is meant entirely light-heartedly.
Anyway, I believe that many of our continental cousins use
similarly slightly derogatory terms based around the English.
After all, we were known as Perfidious Albion at one time.
Eindhoven is a wonderful city, indeed! |
My next question would have been: are the Dutch singled out? (I only
knew the French kiss - which the French seem to call English kiss - and
the French letter.... I don't know why these two...) and you gave a
couple of other phrases. Thanks!
So I'm not going to ask my 'next question' - unless you or sombody else
knows some more, e.g. phrases with the word 'English' in them .....
Arthur |
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Arthur
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk
like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are quite
a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
Is giving too little and asking too much;
With equal protection the French are content
So we'll lay on Dutch bottoms just twenty percent.
|
Very funny, John.
But shouldn't this 'poem' be written in the past tense? ...
Arthur |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Arthur wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs wrote:
Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net
wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word
'Dutch''. Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors}
whereas other expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch
courage' / 'to talk like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are
quite a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that ;-)
At the time of the Spanish Armada the Dutch were involved in a
national rebellion against the Catholic Spanish monarchy. They
recceived quite a lot of help from English Protestants. Indeed this
was one of the many reasons for the Armada.
The hostility between the English and the Dutch dates from the next
century when there was constant rivalry between the Dutch East India
Company and the English East India Company for the East India trade.
During the Commonealth period this even led to a war between the
English and the Dutch (settled in 1654 IIRC).
this period didn't last very long and in 1688 teh English parliament
even invited the Statthalter (a sort of aristocratic president) of
Holland (I'm not certain of his exact title) to become King William
III.
He was Prince of Orange :-)
Here's a trick question: William of Orange versus James II - who
did the Pope support?
I'm sorry, I haven't the foggiest idea .....
|
Take a wild guess :-)
Here's a clue: where is Orange near?
--
John Briggs |
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Arthur
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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|
John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur wrote:
John Briggs wrote:
Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:00:51 +0200, Arthur <plc@postmark.net
wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word
'Dutch''. Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors}
whereas other expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch
courage' / 'to talk like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are
quite a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
Ah but you were allies of the Spanish at the time of the Armada.
Another 500 years and we may have forgotten that ;-)
At the time of the Spanish Armada the Dutch were involved in a
national rebellion against the Catholic Spanish monarchy. They
recceived quite a lot of help from English Protestants. Indeed this
was one of the many reasons for the Armada.
The hostility between the English and the Dutch dates from the next
century when there was constant rivalry between the Dutch East India
Company and the English East India Company for the East India trade.
During the Commonealth period this even led to a war between the
English and the Dutch (settled in 1654 IIRC).
this period didn't last very long and in 1688 teh English parliament
even invited the Statthalter (a sort of aristocratic president) of
Holland (I'm not certain of his exact title) to become King William
III.
He was Prince of Orange :-)
Here's a trick question: William of Orange versus James II - who
did the Pope support?
I'm sorry, I haven't the foggiest idea .....
Take a wild guess :-)
Here's a clue: where is Orange near?
|
It's a city in the south of France.
But knowing that doesn't get me any further I think..
But don't give the answer yet, please.
I would like to think about it. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: Expressions with 'Dutch' in the English language |
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Arthur wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs wrote:
Arthur wrote:
There are a number of expressions in English with the word 'Dutch''.
Some of them have a neutral meaning (e.g. Dutch doors} whereas other
expressions heve a negative meaning, e.g.'Dutch courage' / 'to talk
like a Dutch uncle'.
I wonder if anyone in the newsgroup could explain why there are
quite a number of these negative expressions.
We - the Dutch- are nice people, aren't we.......?
In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch
Is giving too little and asking too much;
With equal protection the French are content
So we'll lay on Dutch bottoms just twenty percent.
Very funny, John.
But shouldn't this 'poem' be written in the past tense? ...
|
It was written in the past (1826, in fact.)
--
John Briggs |
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