In a cold blood?

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In a cold blood?

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chance
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:12 am Post subject: In a cold blood?

Last week I was watching 'Who Killed Julius Caesar?' on Discovery Channel, when I came across this: 'Julius Caesar was killed in a cold blood." I wondered what difference had it made if the narrator said, 'in cold blood'.

Alan OBrien
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:55 am Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

"chance" <livewire@edunet4u.net> wrote in message
news:2qpq42F11o0m2U1@uni-berlin.de...

Quote:

Last week I was watching 'Who Killed Julius Caesar?'
on Discovery Channel, when I came across this:
'Julius Caesar was killed in a cold blood."

I wondered what difference had it made if the narrator
said, 'in cold blood'.

Murder is either done in 'hot blood' or 'cold'blood'.
Cold blood means that the murder was prepared beforehand.

meirman
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

In alt.english.usage on Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:55:29 GMT "Alan OBrien"
<alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:

Quote:

practice. It's been 32 years, and I was not such a good student even
in this course, which was doggone interesting.

These two are opposites, and only one is true, maybe the second one.
Either a) one could be calm up until a very small time before the
murder, but a minute or less iirc of time for rage to build might be
enough time to be entitled to argue that the killer was in a rage,
which lowers the category of murder one level, iirc.

Or

b) One can be in a furious rage, and unable to think clearly for all
the time just prior to the murder, EXCEPT some very short time,
depending on the details, as little as one minute** or maybe less,
when one is calm and deliberative, and decides to murder the person as
little as one minute** before he does so. If he has that minute
between deciding and killing, and it can be shown that he decided
before he did it, the murder is still premeditated. In that case, no
preparation other than the decision need be made, and that's why I'm
posting. In fact even if one decides that the next time one has an
opportunity to kill person B, he'll do it, and makes no other
preparation, I think that is premeditated. It's probably b that is
true and not a.

**I"m not sure where the time delay must be. As it was explained to
me in law school, it wasn't both. It's probably the second and not
the first, and where and the amount of time may not be exactly the
same everywhere.

BTW, if you ever see a NYC cop show and the murderer is charged with
second degree murder, even though it is premeditated, here is the
reason: In NYS first degree murder only applies to killing for hire,
hiring someone to kill, killing a witness (in a criminal? case),
killing a prison guard or a cop in uniform (or more likely any cop
that the killer knows is a cop) and (this might not be NY. I think
it's Virginia but it may be NY too) killing several people in separate
locations within a 12 hour time period, or some other rather short
time period) Maybe there are other conditions, but without special
circumstances the charge is 2nd degree murder or lower.

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years

Alan Jones
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

"chance" <livewire@edunet4u.net> wrote in message
news:2qpq42F11o0m2U1@uni-berlin.de...

Quote:

The "the" is incorrect, or perhaps you simply misheard the correct form "in
cold blood": the speaker may have hesitated and said "uh", and you took that
for the word "a". One could also speak of "a cold-blooded killing", or
even say "they cold-bloodedly killed him". They all mean the same thing:
the killing was deliberate and dispassionate, carried out as a matter of
policy and not because of enmity or done on impulse.

A correction to your own sentence: "I wondered what difference it would have
made if ..."

Alan Jones

chance
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lPQ1d.17470$_66.7103@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

Quote:

Are you saying, 'Julius Caesar was killed in a cold blood'
should be read to mean, 'He was killed in 'hot blood''?
It is said that he was killed in a very much premeditated manner.

What is 'in a cold blood', compared to 'in cold blood'?

chance
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

"Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

Quote:

The "the" is incorrect, or perhaps you simply misheard the correct form
"in
cold blood": the speaker may have hesitated and said "uh", and you took
that
for the word "a".

That's the possibility I considered. But how do you make it sure
if you have misheard the correctly narrated version
of 'in cold blood'? Or you deny altogether the possibility
that the narrator could have said, 'in a cold blood'?

meirman
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

In alt.english.usage on Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:30:55 GMT "Alan Jones"
<atj@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:

Quote:

"chance" <livewire@edunet4u.net> wrote in message
news:2qpq42F11o0m2U1@uni-berlin.de...
Last week I was watching 'Who Killed Julius Caesar?'
on Discovery Channel, when I came across this:
'Julius Caesar was killed in a cold blood."

I wondered what difference had it made if the narrator
said, 'in cold blood'.

The "the" is incorrect, or perhaps you simply misheard the correct form "in
cold blood": the speaker may have hesitated and said "uh", and you took that
for the word "a". One could also speak of "a cold-blooded killing", or
even say "they cold-bloodedly killed him". They all mean the same thing:
the killing was deliberate and dispassionate, carried out as a matter of
policy and not because of enmity or done on impulse.

I think it includes acts done because of enmity. Here is
www.dictionary.com:

Main Entry: cold blood
a state of mind marked by premeditation and deliberateness —usually
used in the phrase in cold blood <killed the victim in cold blood>
—compare COOL STATE OF BLOOD, HEAT OF PASSION —cold–blood·ed
/'kOld-'bl&-d&d/ adjective

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster,
Inc. Those that follow are all from this same source.

Also:
cool state of blood: an emotional condition in which a person's anger
or passion is not great enough to overcome his or her faculties or
ability to reason —often used in statutory definitions of murder

heat of pas·sion: an agitated state of mind (as anger or terror)
prompted by provocation sufficient to overcome the ability of a
reasonable person to reflect on and control his or her actions called
also heat of blood heat of passion on sudden provocation hot blood
sudden heat sudden heat of passion sudden passion —see also
MANSLAUGHTER

Main Entry: man·slaugh·ter
the unlawful killing of a human being without malice —compare
HOMICIDE, MURDER

involuntary manslaughter:manslaughter resulting from the failure to
perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from
the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or from
the commission of a lawful act involving a risk of injury or death
that is done in an unlawful, reckless, or grossly negligent manner
—see also reckless homicide at HOMICIDE

NOTE: The exact formulation of the elements of involuntary
manslaughter vary from state to state esp. with regard to the level of
negligence required. In states that grade manslaughter by degrees,
involuntary manslaughter is usually graded as a second- or
third-degree offense.

misdemeanor–manslaughter: involuntary manslaughter occurring during
the commission of a misdemeanor —compare felony murder at MURDER

voluntary manslaughter: manslaughter resulting from an intentional act
done without malice or premeditation and while in the heat of passion
or on sudden provocation

NOTE: In states that grade manslaughter by degrees, voluntary
manslaughter is usually a first-degree offense.

Main Entry: ho·mi·cide
Etymology: Latin homicidium, from homo human being + caedere to cut,
kill
1 : a person who kills another
2 : the killing of one human being by another

criminal homicide: homicide committed by a person with a criminal
state of mind (as intentionally, with premeditation, knowingly,
recklessly, or with criminal negligence)

deliberate homicide: homicide caused purposely and knowingly
—used in Montana

excusable homicide: homicide that is committed by accident or
misfortune by a person doing a lawful act by lawful means with usual
and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent and that is
excused under the law with no criminal punishment imposed; also :
JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE in this entry

felonious homicide: homicide committed without justification

homicide by misadventure: homicide that occurs as the result of an
accident caused by a person doing a lawful act with no unlawful intent
[I"ve never heard this one used formally. I doubt it exists in all
states.]

justifiable homicide: homicide that is committed in self-defense, in
defense of another and esp. a member of one's family or sometimes in
defense of a residence, in preventing a felony esp. involving great
bodily harm, or in performing a legal duty and that is justified under
the law with no criminal punishment imposed; also : EXCUSABLE HOMICIDE
in this entry

negligent homicide: homicide caused by a person's criminally negligent
act

reckless homicide: homicide caused by a person's reckless acts
NOTE: In Illinois, involuntary manslaughter committed by use of a
motor vehicle is called reckless homicide.

ve·hic·u·lar homicide/vE-'hi-ky&-l&r-/: homicide committed by the use
of a vehicle (as an automobile or boat)

Main Entry: mur·der
Etymology: partly from Old English morthor; partly from Old French
murdre, of Germanic origin: the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably
killing another under circumstances defined by statute (as with
premeditation); especially : such a crime committed purposely,
knowingly, and recklessly with extreme indifference to human life or
during the course of a serious felony (as robbery or rape) —compare
COLD BLOOD, COOLING TIME, HOMICIDE, MANSLAUGHTER

NOTE: Self-defense, necessity, and lack of capacity for criminal
responsibility (as because of insanity) are defenses to a charge of
murder. Most state statutes and the U.S. Code divide murder into two
degrees. Florida, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania currently have three
degrees of murder. Some states do not assign degrees of murder.

de·praved–heart murder: a murder that is the result of an act which is
dangerous to others and shows that the perpetrator has a depraved mind
and no regard for human life

NOTE: Depraved-heart murder is usually considered second- or
third-degree murder.

felony murder: a murder that occurs in the commission of a serious
felony (as burglary or sexual battery) —compare
misdemeanor-manslaughter at MANSLAUGHTER

NOTE: Felony murder is usually considered first-degree murder. Felony
murder does not require specific intent to kill, and an accessory to
the felony may also be charged with the murder.

[AIUI any death that occurs during a felony, unless caused by
something else, is felony murder. Something else might be that the
person was poisened earlier. OTOH, if he has a heart attack or a
stroke during a felony, his death may still be felony murder. AIUI,
even if one of the criminals is killed during a felony, say one bank
robber is shot and killed by police, the other criminals can be
charged with felony murder, although I think this is very rarely done.

IIRC, a defense to the charge of felony murder, when one of one's
accomplices shoots and kills the teller in a bank, for example, would
be that the person charged believed and had good reason to believe
that that none of them would bring a gun.]

first–degree murder: a murder that is committed with premeditation or
during the course of a serious felony (as kidnapping) or that
otherwise (as because of extreme cruelty) requires the most serious
punishment under the law. This is not first degree in New York, as I
explained in another post. I think most of these definitions are
general and don't apply everywhere.

second–degree murder: a murder that is committed without premeditation
but with some intent (as general or transferred intent) or other
circumstances not covered by the first-degree murder statute

third–degree murder: a murder that is not first- or second-degree
murder: as a : a murder committed in the perpetration of a felony not
listed in the first-degree murder statute b : DEPRAVED-HEART MURDER in
this entry

Main Entry: murder
Function: transitive verb: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and
under circumstances constituting murder intransitive verb : to commit
murder

All from the same source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996
Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Quote:

A correction to your own sentence: "I wondered what difference it would have
made if ..."

Alan Jones

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years

Alan Jones
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

"chance" <livewire@edunet4u.net> wrote in message
news:2qqdjnF12ogmfU1@uni-berlin.de...

Quote:

"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lPQ1d.17470$_66.7103@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

"chance" <livewire@edunet4u.net> wrote in message
news:2qpq42F11o0m2U1@uni-berlin.de...
Last week I was watching 'Who Killed Julius Caesar?'
on Discovery Channel, when I came across this:
'Julius Caesar was killed in a cold blood."

I wondered what difference had it made if the narrator
said, 'in cold blood'.

Murder is either done in 'hot blood' or 'cold'blood'.
Cold blood means that the murder was prepared beforehand.

Are you saying, 'Julius Caesar was killed in a cold blood'
should be read to mean, 'He was killed in 'hot blood''?
It is said that he was killed in a very much premeditated manner.

What is 'in a cold blood', compared to 'in cold blood'?

"In a cold blood" is not correct English. The expression is always "in cold
blood". If you thought you heard "in a cold blood" you were mistaken.

Alan Jones

Alan Jones
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: In a cold blood?

"meirman" <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:svvfk0tio7j5p1r7p7amolif2cb1h1ispe@4ax.com...

Quote:

In alt.english.usage on Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:30:55 GMT "Alan Jones"
atj@blueyonder.co.uk> posted:
[...]

[concerning theexpoession "in cold blood"]

Quote:

One could also speak of "a cold-blooded killing", or
even say "they cold-bloodedly killed him". They all mean the same thing:
the killing was deliberate and dispassionate, carried out as a matter of
policy and not because of enmity or done on impulse.

I think it includes acts done because of enmity. Here is
www.dictionary.com:
[there follow relevant definitons and citations]

Yes: I was wrong to suggest that the absence of "enmity" was implicit in the
general sense of "in cold blood". But the questioner referred to the
killling of Julius Caesar, and I was thinking of Shakespeare's play, where
Brutus says:

It must be by his death: and, for my part,
I know no personal cause to spurn at him,
But for the general. He would be crown'd:
How that might change his nature, there's the question.

Some of the other conspirators are depicted as less purely motivated.

At least a few of the various examples you [Meirman] cite, based largely on
US criminal law, seem to equate "in cold blood" with "premeditated", but I
think there may be a distinction: someone who, harbouring long-established
hostility to his intended victim and, having stalked him, finally finds an
opportunity to kill him may not kill "in cold blood", at least not as I
understand the term. Blood can be kept on the boil for longer than a pan of
water.

Alan Jones

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