| Author |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:33:27 GMT, axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a market
might be held.
Markets were originally held on Sundays in the main,
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"in the main"? Were these fish markets?
| Quote: | but under
ecclesiastical pressure were moved to weekdays by the early decades
of the 13th century.
Axel
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--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:18 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <EGZue.4561$zM2.2556@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a
market might be held.
|
You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which generally
are special events held on one day each year, not markets which occur
on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even now, "ordinary
days".
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/
The Wentworth Follies:
Needle's Eye, Hoober Stand, Keppel's Column, Rockingham Mausoleum |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:31 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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At 23:29:30 on Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Peter Duncanson
<mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in
<k82pb1p7asui03ihpg31s0r5bhqkl6o288@4ax.com>:
| Quote: | On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:33:27 GMT, axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk wrote:
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which
a market
might be held.
Markets were originally held on Sundays in the main,
"in the main"? Were these fish markets?
|
Nice one.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:46 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <EGZue.4561$zM2.2556@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a
market might be held.
You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which generally
are special events held on one day each year, not markets which occur
on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even now, "ordinary
days".
|
As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from OFr, you
do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the phenomenon simply
didn't exist. It doesn't seem to occur much in place-names, for example
(except for field and streets).
--
John Briggs |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:46 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:18:37 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which generally
| are special events held on one day each year, not markets which occur
| on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even now, "ordinary
| days".
But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a meaning,
to some Christians, if not the general populous.
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:18 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <ZW0ve.4508$Ar5.1828@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, John Briggs
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
In article <EGZue.4561$zM2.2556@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on
which a market might be held.
You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which
generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets
which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even
now, "ordinary days".
As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from
OFr, you do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the
phenomenon simply didn't exist. It doesn't seem to occur much in
place-names, for example (except for field and streets).
|
Presumably we had a variety of Germanic and British terms for an
assortment of local periodic events, most of which involved a deal of
trading along with the remnants of pagan rituals (probably some events
which were, indeed, nothing but super-markets), which generally were
subsumed under the catch-all term "fair".
I did wonder about your emphasis on ecclesiastical "feria" as fair
coming through OFr "feire" suggests rather the possibility of an
original evolution of the meaning from "holiday" to "super-market"
either in classical Roman times or in post-Roman France, it them being
applied to similar trading events in Britain.
I still stand by my assertion that most old fairs (as opposed to Dave's
modern trade fairs at the NEC) are held on or about special days -
minor saints' days, important calendar days, etc. - and as such, it
seems more likely that traders were attracted to a local public
holiday, than that a local public holiday was invented because a
"super-market" happened to be taking place, much as, today, garden
centres and DIY stores time their major marketing efforts to Bank
Holidays, rather than Bank Holidays having been created so that the
public can visit these places.
"Fair" in street names is to be expected if the yearly event is always
held in the same place. We also have a lot of examples of "Market
Square", "Market Street", etc., in many places. "Market" as an element
in town names is quite common because the communities grew up around
the weekly market servicing local farms and hamlets in the area. It is
just about impossible to think of communities growing around the site
of an event held only on just one or on a few consecutive days each
year.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y08-0.htm
Devil's Arrow at Boroughbridge |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:32 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <79vpb1925vga36g5blv637h0arhancvr8p@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:18:37 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which
| generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets
| which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even
| now, "ordinary days".
But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a
meaning, to some Christians, if not the general populous.
|
Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the only
religion.
Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy days",
even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days".
Also, check out "tawdry" (as ventured by John).
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/3kc0-0.htm
Keppel's Column: The Eastern Door |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:12 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| In article <79vpb1925vga36g5blv637h0arhancvr8p@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
| <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:18:37 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com>
| > wrote:
|
| > | You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which
| > | generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets
| > | which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even
| > | now, "ordinary days".
|
| > But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a
| > meaning, to some Christians, if not the general populous.
|
| Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the only
| religion.
See sig, also I live in Bradford.
| Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy days",
| even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days".
No they are secular, because they apply to those of all religions and non.
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
Chair, Bradford Curry Project <bradfordcurryproject@hyphenologist.co.uk>
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/bradfordcurryproject |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:37 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
In article <an7qb1t8l02m0agag2ev8jr5bpmtitjf9u@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:12 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the
| only religion.
See sig, also I live in Bradford.
|
I've seen your sig; it doesn't say anything about religion unless
you're referring to the Holy Spirit as a mighty rushing wind. (I bet
webshots.com has some triffic snaps of it!)
| Quote: | | Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy
| days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days".
No they are secular, because they apply to those of all religions and
non.
|
I was, of course, referring to the fundamental meaning of "holy" as
"set apart".
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/0-alien.htm
I shot a Bug-Eyed Monster,
With my Bug-Eyed Monster gun; |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <79vpb1925vga36g5blv637h0arhancvr8p@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:18:37 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which
generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets
which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even
now, "ordinary days".
But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a
meaning, to some Christians, if not the general populous.
|
Populace. Which in this case *is* populous, and general (caviare to the
general...)
| Quote: | Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the
only religion.
Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy
days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days".
|
"The Feast of St Bank" 
--
John Briggs |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Friday, in article
<aghnb1takul8cqpquoqgo0ek29gtvlev8a@4ax.com>
hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk "Dave Fawthrop" wrote:
| Quote: | The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list of 16
fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public.
[snip]
Toy Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 9 Oct 2005
Baby & Child International Fair (Trade)
The NEC 9 - 11 Oct 2005
Collect It! National Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 22 - 23 Oct 2005
The Festive Gift Fair 2005 (Public)
The NEC 17 - 20 Nov 2005
[snip] |
You seem to have missed the National Vintage Communications Fair on 30th
October?
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <nKave.5715$zM2.3274@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy
days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days".
"The Feast of St Bank"
|
Fair comment.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ -- Dacha's Digital Domicile
http://www.grough.freeuk.com/j05.htm -- Light Plant Crossing |
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3i1kekFjffp5U1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one and a
synonym of "fair".
Sorry, didn't realise the OED was a Latin Dic.
|
"Feria" is not exclusively a Latin word. It has a history of use in
English, which is what tyhe OED entry describes,
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:51 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Friday, in article <4d80180e7adavid@dacha.freeuk.com>
david@dacha.freeuk.com "David" wrote:
| Quote: | I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit of
R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show, or
whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy castles
and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic.
|
Not to mention [the local equivalent of] CMOT Dibbler.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:01 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from OFr, you
do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the phenomenon simply
didn't exist. It doesn't seem to occur much in place-names, for example
(except for field and streets).
|
All those 'chipping', 'chip','cheap' and 'chep' names, related to
chapman (though not Keats), shopping, kaufen, and Copenhagen?
Paul Burke |
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