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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <pqqkb1pha3g54a3gl9kkqbeqshkt3aj9sv@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle-
horse-...
The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far
from paramount.
If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything,
agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and
drink as business expenses.
The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I
have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man
Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the
current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair"
originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it
thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading aspects
latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the holiday,
rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some in
the thread, not least your good self.
|
Fairs were associated with religious festivals. They were usually
held annually and lasted several days (in contrast with local weekly
markets) attracting visitors from far afield. They were primarily
commercial events - they brought a profit to the landowner and
required a royal licence.
Fairs were certainly a break from routine since no other commercial
business was permitted within the local area for the duration of
a fair.
Axel
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <dzAue.1255$Ar5.330@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except
for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's
day!
I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give
fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers
weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday.
|
feriae (f. pl.) means 'festivals, holidays'. In Mediaeval Latin, "festum"
means a 'festival'.
--
John Briggs |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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Dave Fawthrop wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:26 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
In article <pqqkb1pha3g54a3gl9kkqbeqshkt3aj9sv@4ax.com>, Dave
Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:03 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle-
horse-...
The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far
from paramount.
If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything,
agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food
and drink as business expenses.
The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I
have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man
Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the
current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair"
originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it
thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading
aspects latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the
holiday, rather than the other way about as seems to be being
claimed by some in the thread, not least your good self.
Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo
Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one appears
to be a "false friend"
|
And you are inventing non-existent languages - stop it! The designations
are OE/ME/ModE.
--
John Briggs
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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David wrote:
| Quote: | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the
current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair"
originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it
thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading aspects
latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the holiday,
rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some
in the thread, not least your good self.
|
I'm not sure about that. In ecclesiastical use the word "feria" means a day
which is neither a feast day nor a fast.
In the town where I grew up we had three annual fairs. One of these was the
Sheep Fair which was exactly what the name suggests, a gathering for a few
days to buy & sell flocks of sheep. This died out when the local farmers
decided that barley was a morfe profitable line than sheep.
The other two were (and still are) known as Mop Fairs, and had originally
been hiring fairs, at which farm and domestic workers sought employment for
the cominmg year. These were linked in the town's Charter (granted by King
John in the 13th Century) to the town's right to hold markets. By the
middle-twentieth century (if not sooner) the Mop Fairs had become ordinary
fun-fairs.
I believe that fairs started out in medieval times as trading occasions,
bigger versions of the weekly markets, and the celebratory elements became
attached to them.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <dzAue.1255$Ar5.330@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except
for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's
day!
I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give
fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers
weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday.
|
Yes, but if you read the definition as well, you see that OED gives the
prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers and
sellers, often with shows and entertainments.
And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one and a
synonym of "fair".
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:53 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <3i1kekFjffp5U1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
<michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give
fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers
weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday.
Yes, but if you read the definition as well, you see that OED gives
the prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers
and sellers, often with shows and entertainments.
|
Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written
evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution from
simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should that in
fact be the case.
| Quote: | And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one and a
synonym of "fair".
|
Sorry, didn't realise the OED was a Latin Dic.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/
Where subtle shades of every hue, homogenize and mellow:
Pages cyan, green, and blue; and red, magenta, yellow. |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:59 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <3i1k2tFivsr2U1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
<michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
[Snip]
| Quote: | I believe that fairs started out in medieval times as trading
occasions, bigger versions of the weekly markets, and the celebratory
elements became attached to them.
|
And no doubt the Temple in Jerusalem started out as a bureau de
change... ;-)
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/0b-0.htm
...beneath the Masonic pyramid is the legend NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM... |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:48 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:53:08 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| In article <3i1kekFjffp5U1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
| <michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
| > David wrote:
| > >
| > > I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give
| > > fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers
| > > weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday.
|
| > Yes, but if you read the definition as well, you see that OED gives
| > the prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers
| > and sellers, often with shows and entertainments.
|
| Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written
| evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution from
| simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should that in
| fact be the case.
The drift of meaning in English and its predecessors was the other way from
Trading opportunity to holiday/entertainment.
The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list of 16
fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public.
http://www.necgroup.co.uk/visitor/whatson/SearchWhatsOn.asp?k=fair
| Quote: |
Antiques for Everyone - The NEC Antiques Fair (Public) |
The NEC 28 - 31 Jul 2005
Toy Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 21 Aug 2005
Autumn Fair (Trade)
The NEC 4 - 7 Sep 2005
Symphony Organ Silent Movie: The Iron Mask
Symphony Hall 29 Sep 2005
Toy Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 9 Oct 2005
Baby & Child International Fair (Trade)
The NEC 9 - 11 Oct 2005
Collect It! National Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 22 - 23 Oct 2005
The Festive Gift Fair 2005 (Public)
The NEC 17 - 20 Nov 2005
Antiques for Everyone - The NEC Antiques Fair (Public)
The NEC 24 - 27 Nov 2005
National Christmas Lacemaker's Fair (Public)
The NEC 3 Dec 2005
Toy Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 11 Dec 2005
National Fine Art and Antiques Fair (Public)
The NEC 18 - 22 Jan 2006
Spring Fair Birmingham 2006 (Trade)
The NEC 5 - 9 Feb 2006
Toy Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 26 Feb 2006
British Travel Trade Fair (Trade)
The NEC 1 - 2 Mar 2006
Toy Collectors' Fair (Public)
The NEC 7 May 2006
<<<
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:43 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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Mike Stevens wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
In article <dzAue.1255$Ar5.330@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except
for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's
day!
I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give
fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers
weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday.
Yes, but if you read the definition as well, you see that OED gives the
prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers and
sellers, often with shows and entertainments.
This is, of course, the primary meaning today. But that doesn't mean |
that it was always the primary meaning. There are numerous words in the
English language that derive from Latin but whose present meaning isn't
a translation of the original Latin root.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
In article <aghnb1takul8cqpquoqgo0ek29gtvlev8a@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:53:08 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written
| evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution
| from simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should
| that in fact be the case.
The drift of meaning in English and its predecessors was the other
way from Trading opportunity to holiday/entertainment.
The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list
of 16 fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public.
|
[Snip]
Yes, of course, Dave. Bringing in all the so-called "fairs" held at the
NEC does prove beyond all doubt that some one and half millennia or so
ago, the denizens of backwater towns and villages across this land
began to be treated to trade exhibitions on which occasions, sometime
later, their employers granted them time off for merriment.
I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit of
R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show, or
whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy castles
and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/quiz/20-0.htm
What starts and ends as a laugh but isn't funny? |
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Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit of
R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show, or
whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy castles
and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic.
|
There were few endeavours to grant relaxation time to the ordinary
peasant - quite frequently even the stipulated holidays laid down
by the Church were were not adhered to.
Fairs and markets were established purely for commercial reasons
- why pay for a licence unless a profit will be forthcoming. A
major consideration in granting such a licence was whether creating
a new market would harm an existing market - hardly a sign that
recreation was an aim rather than a side-effect of such an institution.
Axel |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
In article <Y8Wue.51832$Vj3.39734@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
<axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a
bit of R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala,
show, or whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans,
bouncy castles and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by
magic.
There were few endeavours to grant relaxation time to the ordinary
peasant - quite frequently even the stipulated holidays laid down by
the Church were were not adhered to.
Fairs and markets were established purely for commercial reasons -
why pay for a licence unless a profit will be forthcoming. A major
consideration in granting such a licence was whether creating a new
market would harm an existing market - hardly a sign that recreation
was an aim rather than a side-effect of such an institution.
That's as maybe but your answer still begs the question. I'm not |
disputing that the primary purpose of markets (and super-markets called
"fairs") was to trade, I'm questioning whether or not you can state
categorically that some ancient "fairs" did not originate as local
pagan holidays where, alongside such gay events as the burning of
wicker-men, dancing round the maypole, playing hunt-the-cherry, etc.,
purveyors of roast squirrel and stuffed cod made their mark.
I've offered in support of my position the two facts that "fair"
derives through Old French from a Latin word with the meaning
"holiday", rather than "market", and that even today, local (or wider)
events intended to be primarily recreational usually attract quite a
number of traders and can, if not checked, turn into super-markets with
the entertainment being merely side-shows.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/6y-0.htm
Say nothing on Sunday; contemplate this day the Golden Sun:
A Sulphurous Yellow Light - but false - that from Cold Night was Spun. |
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John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
|
|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <aghnb1takul8cqpquoqgo0ek29gtvlev8a@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:53:08 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written
evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution
from simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should
that in fact be the case.
The drift of meaning in English and its predecessors was the other
way from Trading opportunity to holiday/entertainment.
The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list
of 16 fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public.
[Snip]
Yes, of course, Dave. Bringing in all the so-called "fairs" held at
the NEC does prove beyond all doubt that some one and half millennia
or so ago, the denizens of backwater towns and villages across this
land began to be treated to trade exhibitions on which occasions,
sometime later, their employers granted them time off for merriment.
I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit
of R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show,
or whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy
castles and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic.
|
Tawdry?
--
John Briggs |
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John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
|
|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <Y8Wue.51832$Vj3.39734@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk> wrote:
David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a
bit of R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala,
show, or whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans,
bouncy castles and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by
magic.
There were few endeavours to grant relaxation time to the ordinary
peasant - quite frequently even the stipulated holidays laid down by
the Church were were not adhered to.
Fairs and markets were established purely for commercial reasons -
why pay for a licence unless a profit will be forthcoming. A major
consideration in granting such a licence was whether creating a new
market would harm an existing market - hardly a sign that recreation
was an aim rather than a side-effect of such an institution.
That's as maybe but your answer still begs the question. I'm not
disputing that the primary purpose of markets (and super-markets
called "fairs") was to trade, I'm questioning whether or not you can
state categorically that some ancient "fairs" did not originate as
local pagan holidays where, alongside such gay events as the burning
of wicker-men, dancing round the maypole, playing hunt-the-cherry,
etc., purveyors of roast squirrel and stuffed cod made their mark.
I've offered in support of my position the two facts that "fair"
derives through Old French from a Latin word with the meaning
"holiday", rather than "market", and that even today, local (or wider)
events intended to be primarily recreational usually attract quite a
number of traders and can, if not checked, turn into super-markets
with the entertainment being merely side-shows.
|
I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a market
might be held.
--
John Briggs |
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Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:33 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
|
|
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a market
might be held.
|
Markets were originally held on Sundays in the main, but under
ecclesiastical pressure were moved to weekdays by the early decades
of the 13th century.
Axel |
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