| Author |
Message |
Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:26 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: | Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Old
English?
|
Old English developed from Anglo Saxon after the AS state was destroyed
by Billy the Bastard. Losing the conservative force of officially
sponsored scribes, the grammar and spelling simplified. So whereas the
AS Chronicle was written in grammatical AS at Peterborough up to King
Stephen's reign, most post- conquest writings are in the simplified
form, which we now call Old English or Early English. I suspect that the
spoken language in immediate pre- conquest times was closer to Old
English than high AS.
Paul Burke
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Dave Fawthrop wrote:
SOED lists an Anglo Saxon derivation for Holy Day. For Holiday it
has Old English and Middle English derivations. It also gives usages
for 1440, and 1526. It also references each form to the other.
Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Old
English?
|
There isn't a distinction:
"The oldest stage of English, from the earliest records (abput
AD 700) to soon after the Norman Conquest, is now generally
called 'Old English', though the name 'Anglo-Saxon' is still
often used.
-- Sweet's Anglo-Saxon primer
Axel |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:30 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs wrote:
Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and
Old English?
Old English developed from Anglo Saxon after the AS state was
destroyed by Billy the Bastard. Losing the conservative force of
officially sponsored scribes, the grammar and spelling simplified. So
whereas the AS Chronicle was written in grammatical AS at
Peterborough up to King Stephen's reign, most post- conquest writings
are in the simplified form, which we now call Old English or Early
English. I suspect that the spoken language in immediate pre-
conquest times was closer to Old English than high AS.
|
Do you always post complete nonsense without thinking?
--
John Briggs
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:15 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which
were nothing if not commercial.
|
I don't agree with that. I think the modern equivalents of the mdieval
fairs would be a mic=xture of shopping malls and emplyment agencies.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <3htrm5FibaglU1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
<michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Paul Burke wrote:
The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which
were nothing if not commercial.
I don't agree with that. I think the modern equivalents of the
mdieval fairs would be a mic=xture of shopping malls and emplyment
agencies.
|
Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/40-juice.htm
O-o-oh, the liquorice juice is running loose,
And the rhubarb skins' a-peeling... |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:03 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| In article <3htrm5FibaglU1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
| <michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
| > Paul Burke wrote:
|
| > > The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which
| > > were nothing if not commercial.
|
| > I don't agree with that. I think the modern equivalents of the
| > mdieval fairs would be a mic=xture of shopping malls and emplyment
| > agencies.
|
| Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle- horse-...
The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far from
paramount.
If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything,
agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and drink
as business expenses.
The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I have had
reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:02 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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In article <pqqkb1pha3g54a3gl9kkqbeqshkt3aj9sv@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:03 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle-
horse-...
The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far
from paramount.
If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything,
agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and
drink as business expenses.
The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I
have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man
|
Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the
current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair"
originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it
thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading aspects
latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the holiday,
rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some in
the thread, not least your good self.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/0a-0.htm
What exactly are meteor showers, and when is the best time to see them? |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:27 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:03 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3htrm5FibaglU1@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
Paul Burke wrote:
The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which
were nothing if not commercial.
I don't agree with that. I think the modern equivalents of the
mdieval fairs would be a mic=xture of shopping malls and emplyment
agencies.
Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
|
Then there's "fayre". I've never been sure whether that's a genuine
alternative form or just an "olde worlde" spelling made up for effect.
I always want to pronounce it fay-ree.
According to
<http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutspelling/fayre>
it is genuinely old but now used to lend "an historick flavour" to
both "fair" and "fare".
--
Phil C. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <pqqkb1pha3g54a3gl9kkqbeqshkt3aj9sv@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:03 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle-
horse-...
The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far
from paramount.
If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything,
agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and
drink as business expenses.
The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I
have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man
Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the
current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair"
originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it
thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading aspects
latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the holiday,
rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some
in the thread, not least your good self.
|
I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except for
ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's day!
--
John Briggs |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:12 pm
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:26 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| In article <pqqkb1pha3g54a3gl9kkqbeqshkt3aj9sv@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
| <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:45:03 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com>
| > wrote:
|
| > | Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday".
|
| > SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle-
| > horse-...
|
| > The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far
| > from paramount.
|
| > If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything,
| > agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and
| > drink as business expenses.
|
| > The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I
| > have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man
|
| Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the
| current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair"
| originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it
| thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading aspects
| latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the holiday,
| rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some in
| the thread, not least your good self.
Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo Saxon/OE/ME/English
words with similar meanings. This one appears to be a "false friend"
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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David
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
In article <2mnlb1p1044q981f982of175chfgdsdu96@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:26 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor
| the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word
| "fair" originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire");
| and it thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various
| trading aspects latched on to the the gathering for the celebration
| of the holiday, rather than the other way about as seems to be
| being claimed by some in the thread, not least your good self.
Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo
Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one appears
to be a "false friend"
|
Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology. What's
your source?
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/mavic/0m03-0.htm
Crackpot |
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David
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:34 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
In article <dzAue.1255$Ar5.330@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>, John Briggs
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except
for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's
day!
|
I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give
fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers
weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/4r-0.htm
Red Magic
Right Nostril of Nergal
Right Hand in the Shadow of Death |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:42 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
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|
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:30:14 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
| In article <2mnlb1p1044q981f982of175chfgdsdu96@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
| <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:26 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com>
| > wrote:
|
| > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor
| > | the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word
| > | "fair" originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire");
| > | and it thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various
| > | trading aspects latched on to the the gathering for the celebration
| > | of the holiday, rather than the other way about as seems to be
| > | being claimed by some in the thread, not least your good self.
|
| > Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo
| > Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one appears
| > to be a "false friend"
|
| Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology. What's
| your source?
Kindly read what you quoted
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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David
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:51 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
|
|
In article <6k0mb1dhlo01spf8jjo1hrqj44pmb2qauf@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:30:14 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| In article <2mnlb1p1044q981f982of175chfgdsdu96@4ax.com>, Dave
| Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:26 +0100, David
| > <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
|
| > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition,
| > | nor the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the
| > | word "fair" originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr
| > | "feire"); and it thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the
| > | various trading aspects latched on to the the gathering for the
| > | celebration of the holiday, rather than the other way about as
| > | seems to be being claimed by some in the thread, not least your
| > | good self.
|
| > Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo
| > Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one
| > appears to be a "false friend"
|
| Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology.
| What's your source?
Kindly read what you quoted
|
Would I be correct in thinking that you suppose that although "fair"
might derive (through OFr "feire") from Latin "feria", the poor,
benighted Angles didn't have any time off and so used the same word to
mean "car boot sale" (for which activity they didn't have a word of
their own)?
Or do you mean that AS/OE/ME/English (phew!) "fair" just happens to
sound like it could derive from Latin "feria" but doesn't really?
Dave, you're not very clear and simply referring back to your previous
confusing (or confused? Since it's confusing, it's difficult to tell)
post doesn't really help.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:15 am
Post subject: Re: holiday/holidays/vacation |
|
|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <6k0mb1dhlo01spf8jjo1hrqj44pmb2qauf@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:30:14 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| In article <2mnlb1p1044q981f982of175chfgdsdu96@4ax.com>, Dave
| Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:02:26 +0100, David
| > <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
|
| > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition,
| > | nor the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the
| > | word "fair" originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr
| > | "feire"); and it thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the
| > | various trading aspects latched on to the the gathering for the
| > | celebration of the holiday, rather than the other way about as
| > | seems to be being claimed by some in the thread, not least your
| > | good self.
|
| > Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo
| > Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one
| > appears to be a "false friend"
|
| Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology.
| What's your source?
Kindly read what you quoted
Would I be correct in thinking that you suppose that although "fair"
might derive (through OFr "feire") from Latin "feria", the poor,
benighted Angles didn't have any time off and so used the same word to
mean "car boot sale" (for which activity they didn't have a word of
their own)?
Or do you mean that AS/OE/ME/English (phew!) "fair" just happens to
sound like it could derive from Latin "feria" but doesn't really?
Dave, you're not very clear and simply referring back to your previous
confusing (or confused? Since it's confusing, it's difficult to tell)
post doesn't really help.
Since the German word "Ferien" meaning holidays (and the first syllable |
is pronounced the same as "fair") derives from the Latin "feriae"
meaning holidays and various English dictionaries, including those
already cited and teh Merriam-Webster, say that "fair" also derives from
"feriae" I think it's fairly safe to assume that this is the case.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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