| Author |
Message |
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:52 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Phil C. wrote:
they never go "the full monty". That
expression actually seems to have disappeared since the film, BTW(?)
What was its origin? I always assumed it was something to do with Monty
Python, and an oblique reference to the trouser snake.
|
There's an account of the debate at
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/monty.htm>
It was common before the film in various contexts suggesting "the
whole amount" and no doubt its origin was much discussed but the
connection to the film seems to have killed it off (in my experience).
--
Phil C.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:52 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com
wrote:
Phil C. wrote:
they never go "the full monty". That
expression actually seems to have disappeared since the film, BTW(?)
What was its origin? I always assumed it was something to do with
Monty Python, and an oblique reference to the trouser snake.
There's an account of the debate at
http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/monty.htm
It was common before the film in various contexts suggesting "the
whole amount" and no doubt its origin was much discussed but the
connection to the film seems to have killed it off (in my experience).
|
Nobody can prove that it wasn't invented by Ben Elton - it was certainly
popularised by him.
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:03:13 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Phil C. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:52 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com
wrote:
Phil C. wrote:
they never go "the full monty". That
expression actually seems to have disappeared since the film, BTW(?)
What was its origin? I always assumed it was something to do with
Monty Python, and an oblique reference to the trouser snake.
There's an account of the debate at
http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/monty.htm
It was common before the film in various contexts suggesting "the
whole amount" and no doubt its origin was much discussed but the
connection to the film seems to have killed it off (in my experience).
Nobody can prove that it wasn't invented by Ben Elton - it was certainly
popularised by him.
|
I suppose, though, that he'd have explained it if he coined it(?) -
he's not known for his reticence. The article suggests that "The jury
is still out on this one." But I expect they'll get round to tackling
it once they've got the Michael Jackson case out of the way.
--
Phil C.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:03:13 GMT, "John Briggs"
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Phil C. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:52 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com
wrote:
Phil C. wrote:
they never go "the full monty". That
expression actually seems to have disappeared since the film,
BTW(?)
What was its origin? I always assumed it was something to do with
Monty Python, and an oblique reference to the trouser snake.
There's an account of the debate at
http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/monty.htm
It was common before the film in various contexts suggesting "the
whole amount" and no doubt its origin was much discussed but the
connection to the film seems to have killed it off (in my
experience).
Nobody can prove that it wasn't invented by Ben Elton - it was
certainly popularised by him.
I suppose, though, that he'd have explained it if he coined it(?) -
he's not known for his reticence. The article suggests that "The jury
is still out on this one." But I expect they'll get round to tackling
it once they've got the Michael Jackson case out of the way.
|
He may not have *intentionally* coined it.
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Molly Mockford
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:38 pm
Post subject: The Full Monty |
|
|
At 14:01:12 on Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net>
wrote in <fi3ja15sr9tf5fr2tdeue14eccjammsn4l@4ax.com>:
| Quote: | There's an account of the debate at
http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/monty.htm
It was common before the film in various contexts suggesting "the
whole amount" and no doubt its origin was much discussed but the
connection to the film seems to have killed it off (in my experience).
|
Still in use amongst my friends, referring to a full English breakfast.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:57 am
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
On Friday, in article
<lcgqe.13234$cN2.11703@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
| Quote: | Nobody can prove that it wasn't invented by Ben Elton - it was certainly
popularised by him.
|
Nonsense: I recall my grandfather referring to something as The Full
Monty [or perhaps Monte] back in the early 1950s, before Ben Elton was a
gleam in his father's eye.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Giles Todd
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:47 am
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:49:44 +0100, Phil C.
<philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote:
['the full monty']
| Quote: | I suppose, though, that he'd have explained it if he coined it(?) -
he's not known for his reticence. The article suggests that "The jury
is still out on this one." But I expect they'll get round to tackling
it once they've got the Michael Jackson case out of the way.
|
Etymology from a draft entry for the OED (from the CD-ROM; it's not in
the paper version):
Many theories are proposed as to the origin of this phrase, but none
of them is supported by reliable historical evidence. Perh. the most
plausible is that it is from a colloquial shortening of the name of
Montague Maurice Burton (1885–1952), men's tailor, and referred
originally to the purchase of a complete three-piece suit. Also
popular but unsubstantiated is the belief that the phrase is somehow
derived from Monty, the nickname of Field Marshal Bernard Law
Montgomery (1887–1976). However, the sheer variety of often vague,
purely anecdotal, and mutually contradictory explanations for the
connection—ranging from his wartime briefing style to his
breakfasting habits—renders this less credible. Other suggestions,
including references to monty n. and monte n.1, are still more
speculative.
Earliest citation is from 1985.
Giles |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hall
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:22 pm
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
In article <j92ka1th1u6s2mon7dn0tqnlhr8ebd6ovh@4ax.com>,
Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> writes:
| Quote: |
['the full monty']
snip
Earliest citation is from 1985.
|
That surprises me a little. I had the impression that the expression has
been around for much longer than that.
--
John Hall
"I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly,
will hardly mind anything else."
Dr Samuel Johnson (1709-84) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:12 am
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
John Hall wrote:
| Quote: | In article <j92ka1th1u6s2mon7dn0tqnlhr8ebd6ovh@4ax.com>,
Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> writes:
['the full monty']
snip
Earliest citation is from 1985.
That surprises me a little. I had the impression that the expression
has been around for much longer than that.
|
Everyone has this "impression". Except for me: I didn't watch Ben Elton, so
I wasn't aware of the expression!
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hall
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:02 am
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
In article <LQFqe.12841$m4.2630@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> writes:
| Quote: | John Hall wrote:
In article <j92ka1th1u6s2mon7dn0tqnlhr8ebd6ovh@4ax.com>,
Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> writes:
['the full monty']
snip
Earliest citation is from 1985.
That surprises me a little. I had the impression that the expression
has been around for much longer than that.
Everyone has this "impression". Except for me: I didn't watch Ben Elton, so
I wasn't aware of the expression!
|
I've never watched Ben Elton but was aware of it. I'd be surprised if he
originated it.
--
John Hall
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism
by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Giles Todd
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:22:41 +0100, John Hall
<nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <j92ka1th1u6s2mon7dn0tqnlhr8ebd6ovh@4ax.com>,
Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> writes:
['the full monty']
snip
Earliest citation is from 1985.
That surprises me a little. I had the impression that the expression has
been around for much longer than that.
|
It may well have been around for longer than that (particularly if the
Monty Burton theory is correct). That's the earliest citation in the
draft entry, though. Viz:
1985 K. Howarth Sounds Gradely (North West Sound Archive),
Full-monty, everything included+a thorough display—no messing about.
Since it comes from a sound archive, that does indeed suggest that the
phrase antedates 1985, as also suggested by the inconclusive
etymology. The date on a first citation does not necessarily imply
that that is the first time a word or phrase has ever been used, only
that it is the earliest citation that the editors have found at the
time of publication of that particular edition of the dictionary.
Giles |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
"Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20050610.2257.60174snz@dsl.co.uk...
| Quote: | On Friday, in article
lcgqe.13234$cN2.11703@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
Nobody can prove that it wasn't invented by Ben Elton - it was certainly
popularised by him.
Nonsense: I recall my grandfather referring to something as The Full
Monty [or perhaps Monte] back in the early 1950s, before Ben Elton was a
gleam in his father's eye.
|
I was just about to type much the same thing.
I remember my grandfather using it in the '60s. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rotes Sapiens
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:13 am
Post subject: Re: New words |
|
|
On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:58:10 +0100, Phil C.
<philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote:
| Quote: | New editions of dictionaries tend to be accompanied by a news handout
listing lots of colourful new words that are claimed to have entered
the language This gets lots of free publicity. The new Collins seems
to have taken the art to the extreme - e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4074760.stm
A search on Google news for Collins-Dictionary produces many more
reports with more of the "new words". It's something to do with our
vibrant cuture, apparently. Beyond the obvious ones such as chav and
|
chav reminds me of the word spiv:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-spi3.htm
| Quote: | asbo, how many of these words can actually claim to be part of the
language now - let alone in six months time? I've never heard of most
of them.
|
Most of them do appear to be regional or short-lived. By the time the
words have permeated main-stream culture, the people originally using
them have stopped using them. Try using words like cool, groovy or
daddio with a hippy and see the odd looks.
Sig:
I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them.
-- Isaac Asimov |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in