| Author |
Message |
danilla
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:01 pm
Post subject: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
Hello
I'm really happy there is this kind of newsgroup. That's what I was
looking for. A place where natives can give some advice on a language.
In this case English.
The question is whether one should always say 'one' in this situation
or not.
The black house is larger than the red one.
Not exactly this example but the case of avoiding noun repetion in
general.
So, can it at least in some cases be ok to say just the red without
one. Or it will always be considered strange/wrong?
My native language is Russian, which perfectly allows it. So there is
sometimes temptation to avoid one as well as the noun :)
Thank you very much in advance.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
pietro
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:23 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
danilla schrieb:
| Quote: | Hello
I'm really happy there is this kind of newsgroup. That's what I was
looking for. A place where natives can give some advice on a language.
In this case English.
The question is whether one should always say 'one' in this situation
or not.
The black house is larger than the red one.
It is probably better to use the word one. That way you are more |
explicit.
For example: The black house is large than the orange.
Orange could quite easily be confused with the fruit.
Or
The black house is larger than the green.
In this case the green could mean an area of grass.
Hope it helps.
P. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
danilla wrote:
| Quote: | The question is whether one should always say 'one' in this situation
or not.
The black house is larger than the red one.
Not exactly this example but the case of avoiding noun repetion in
general.
So, can it at least in some cases be ok to say just the red without
one. Or it will always be considered strange/wrong?
|
The form without the word "one" is perfectly correct, but less idiomatic,
and to some ears may sound a little old-fashioned.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Burke
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
Mike Stevens wrote:
| Quote: | danilla wrote:
The question is whether one should always say 'one' in this situation
or not.
The black house is larger than the red one.
The form without the word "one" is perfectly correct, but less idiomatic,
and to some ears may sound a little old-fashioned.
|
Or poetic - an example (of both) is in the ancient ballad 'Tam Lyn':
"First let pass the black horse
Then let pass the brown,
Run unto the white steed
And pull the rider down.."
Paul Burke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danilla
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:04 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
Thank you everybody. Absolutely clear.
Since people here are so kind to help with that , let me try to recall
something else which seemed unclear to me but I hadn't anybody around
to ask. Here it is:
whenever we have had any technical or connection problems they have
been attended to immediately by their efficient and courteous staff.
What seems a little unusual to me is "whenever" and perfect tense.
What would be the difference with whenever we had, whenever we have? I
understand that neither of these two means the same as the first
phrase. But I'd like to know how natives feel it.
Also, it seems to me that the question "When have you [done
something]?" is impossible in English, right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:22 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
danilla wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you everybody. Absolutely clear.
Since people here are so kind to help with that , let me try to recall
something else which seemed unclear to me but I hadn't anybody around
to ask. Here it is:
whenever we have had any technical or connection problems they have
been attended to immediately by their efficient and courteous staff.
What seems a little unusual to me is "whenever" and perfect tense.
What would be the difference with whenever we had, whenever we have? I
understand that neither of these two means the same as the first
phrase. But I'd like to know how natives feel it.
|
Speaking purely from instinct rather than quoting any rules, I think that
the sentence as you quote it is fine, but that if you make either of the
changes you suggest to the first verb, then in order for the sentence as a
whole to sound right you need to change the second verb as well :-
"whenever we had any problems.....they were attended to..."
"whenever we have any problems....they are attended to..."
| Quote: |
Also, it seems to me that the question "When have you [done
something]?" is impossible in English, right?
|
I think there are circumstances in which it is possible such as "When have
you usually changed the oil in your engine?" "I've done it after about 200
hours' running." Perhaps it doesn't work as well without something like the
word "usually" in my example.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Burke
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
danilla wrote:
| Quote: | whenever we have had any technical or connection problems they have
been attended to immediately
|
"Do TrouserCorp have a good technical support department?" asked Wallace.
"Whenever we have had any technical problems they have been attended to
immediately", replied Grommit.
To me, this suggests satisfaction with support which has not often been
called upon.
"Whenever we have any..." -- an ongoing relationship, perhaps frequent.
"Whenever we had any..." -- in the past.
Paul Burke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Molly Mockford
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:58 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
At 15:22:08 on Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Mike Stevens <michael.stevens@which.net>
wrote in <3god85Fcv73iU1@individual.net>:
| Quote: | danilla wrote:
Also, it seems to me that the question "When have you [done
something]?" is impossible in English, right?
I think there are circumstances in which it is possible such as "When have
you usually changed the oil in your engine?" "I've done it after about 200
hours' running." Perhaps it doesn't work as well without something like the
word "usually" in my example.
|
That construction can also be used, rather sarcastically, when
anticipating a negative reply, e.g. "When have you been to tea with the
Queen?" (the expected answer is "Never").
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Philip Powell
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
In message <vXUj58lFHzpCFwuN@molly.mockford>, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> writes
| Quote: | At 15:22:08 on Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Mike Stevens
michael.stevens@which.net> wrote in <3god85Fcv73iU1@individual.net>:
danilla wrote:
Also, it seems to me that the question "When have you [done
something]?" is impossible in English, right?
I think there are circumstances in which it is possible such as "When have
you usually changed the oil in your engine?" "I've done it after about 200
hours' running." Perhaps it doesn't work as well without something like the
word "usually" in my example.
That construction can also be used, rather sarcastically, when
anticipating a negative reply, e.g. "When have you been to tea with the
Queen?" (the expected answer is "Never").
|
<thinking of unn.*>
Shouldn't that have been "When have you been to tea with Me?"
</thinking of unn.*>
--
Philip Powell
Looking north across the Derwent Valley and Northumberland
to The Cheviot |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Molly Mockford
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:04 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
At 21:55:23 on Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Philip Powell
<nospam@f9h9r.deletespam.org.uk> wrote in
<r5MZPYs7s1pCFws1@f9h9r.deletespam.org.uk>:
| Quote: | In message <vXUj58lFHzpCFwuN@molly.mockford>, Molly Mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> writes
That construction can also be used, rather sarcastically, when
anticipating a negative reply, e.g. "When have you been to tea with
the Queen?" (the expected answer is "Never").
thinking of unn.*
Shouldn't that have been "When have you been to tea with Me?"
/thinking of unn.*
|
*sniffs in disdain* Queens? Mere trailer trash!
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:08 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
"danilla" <danilla@pisem.net> wrote in message
news:1118235866.516738.148320@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Thank you everybody. Absolutely clear.
Since people here are so kind to help with that , let me try to recall
something else which seemed unclear to me but I hadn't anybody around
to ask. Here it is:
whenever we have had any technical or connection problems they have
been attended to immediately by their efficient and courteous staff.
|
This is perfectly good English and means that every time we have had
problems in the past, they have been dealt with properly.
| Quote: | What seems a little unusual to me is "whenever" and perfect tense.
|
The perfect implies that the problems were of short duration but
may still occur from time to time.
| Quote: | What would be the difference with whenever we had, whenever we have? I
understand that neither of these two means the same as the first
phrase. But I'd like to know how natives feel it.
|
"Whenever we had problems..." implies that the problems went on
for a while but no longer occur. There is insufficient distinction
between this and the previous case for a hard and fast rule to be drawn.
They both mean or imply roughly the same thing.
"Whenever we have problems..." definitely hints that problems are
an everyday feature and still have to be dealt with from time to time.
| Quote: | Also, it seems to me that the question "When have you [done
something]?" is impossible in English, right?
|
No. It implies that you are enquiring about something which
will probably have occured more than once or was or is habitual.
"When have you been to France?" is expecting an answer such
as "Every year" or "1983 and 1192" or "last year for the first
time". The qualification "for the first time" is because the
questioner was hinting that s/he was expecting more than a
single occasion but the responder is correcting a misapprehension.
"When did you go to France?" is expecting a single answer
but may still get any of the above answers.
"When were you going to France?" implies that the person
made frequent visits but that they occured in the past, so
expecting an answer of the form "Oh, every month back in the '80s". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danilla
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | been attended to immediately by their efficient and courteous staff.
This is perfectly good English and means that every time we have had
problems in the past, they have been dealt with properly.
|
Thank you. Your examples about France made it much clearer to me.
Actually, since "When have you been to France?" is alright then
"Whenever we have had..." is alright as well.
But let me ask:
"Whenever we have had problems" is that sentence about tech support
and
"whenever we have forgotten to switch off the light, we go back and
switch it off".
Does "whenever we have" in those two have different meaning as for its
relation to time, frequency? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
{R}
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:21 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
In uk.culture.language.english on Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:08:38 +0100, "Nick
Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com> wrote:
}"When were you going to France?" implies that the person
}made frequent visits but that they occured in the past, so
}expecting an answer of the form "Oh, every month back in the '80s".
No. It implies that there were plans to go to France, but for some
reason those plans were canceled
{R} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
"danilla" <danilla@pisem.net> wrote in message
news:1118307106.604271.199690@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Nick Wagg wrote:
been attended to immediately by their efficient and courteous staff.
This is perfectly good English and means that every time we have had
problems in the past, they have been dealt with properly.
Thank you. Your examples about France made it much clearer to me.
Actually, since "When have you been to France?" is alright then
"Whenever we have had..." is alright as well.
|
Yes, that's right.
| Quote: | But let me ask:
"Whenever we have had problems" is that sentence about tech support
and
"whenever we have forgotten to switch off the light, we go back and
switch it off".
Does "whenever we have" in those two have different meaning as for its
relation to time, frequency?
|
In both the above cases, as they probably refer to on-going situations
you might just as easily use the present tense: "When we have problems"
or "When we forget to turn off the light" and these would probably be
more commonly used in everyday speech.
The relation to time and frequency depends on the thing you are referring
to.
You might switch off a light a couple of times per night but you may
only need tech. support every few months. The tense you use certainly
depends on whether the instance is likely to occur again, or whether
it only happened once, or regularly in the past. "Regular" depends on
the context. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
|
|
"{R}" <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote in message
news:ds5ga1tecu3eouop4d0645tmas4iekqr4e@4ax.com...
| Quote: | In uk.culture.language.english on Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:08:38 +0100, "Nick
Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com> wrote:
}"When were you going to France?" implies that the person
}made frequent visits but that they occured in the past, so
}expecting an answer of the form "Oh, every month back in the '80s".
No. It implies that there were plans to go to France, but for some
reason those plans were canceled
|
Or that the trips were a regular occurence which no longer take place. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in