| Author |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Thursday, in article
<d88te7$8bs$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>
naw@transcendata.com "Nick Wagg" wrote:
| Quote: | "When have you been to France?" is expecting an answer such
as "Every year" or "1983 and 1192"
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Hmm; I don't think those are the actual years in the movie "Timeline".
:-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:03 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Thursday, in article
<d89bug$611$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>
naw@transcendata.com "Nick Wagg" wrote:
| Quote: | "{R}" <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote in message
news:ds5ga1tecu3eouop4d0645tmas4iekqr4e@4ax.com...
In uk.culture.language.english on Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:08:38 +0100, "Nick
Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com> wrote:
}"When were you going to France?" implies that the person
}made frequent visits but that they occured in the past, so
}expecting an answer of the form "Oh, every month back in the '80s".
No. It implies that there were plans to go to France, but for some
reason those plans were canceled
Or that the trips were a regular occurence which no longer take place.
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For which one might better say "When did you used to go to France?".
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:15 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article
d89bug$611$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk
naw@transcendata.com "Nick Wagg" wrote:
"{R}" <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote in message
news:ds5ga1tecu3eouop4d0645tmas4iekqr4e@4ax.com...
In uk.culture.language.english on Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:08:38 +0100, "Nick
Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com> wrote:
}"When were you going to France?" implies that the person
}made frequent visits but that they occured in the past, so
}expecting an answer of the form "Oh, every month back in the '80s".
No. It implies that there were plans to go to France, but for some
reason those plans were canceled
Or that the trips were a regular occurence which no longer take place.
For which one might better say "When did you used to go to France?".
I believe the spelling is "When did you use to go to France?" |
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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At 08:15:06 on Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Einde O'Callaghan
<einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in
<3gsp9sFdtckqU1@individual.net>:
| Quote: | Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
For which one might better say "When did you used to go to
France?".
I believe the spelling is "When did you use to go to France?"
|
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:11 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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"Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20050609.2300.60163snz@dsl.co.uk...
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article
d88te7$8bs$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk
naw@transcendata.com "Nick Wagg" wrote:
"When have you been to France?" is expecting an answer such
as "Every year" or "1983 and 1192"
Hmm; I don't think those are the actual years in the movie "Timeline".
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Must've been listening to Jethro Tull at the time - "Living in the Past". |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:20 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:45:35 UTC, Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 08:15:06 on Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in
3gsp9sFdtckqU1@individual.net>:
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
For which one might better say "When did you used to go to
France?".
I believe the spelling is "When did you use to go to France?"
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
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"Youse"?
That's funny. It would sound like Brooklyn (NY) talk, sort of like --
was it the film with Joe Pesci? -- a courtroom "lawya" in the US South
wit [sic] an accent? (I think the title was "My Cousin Vinnie". Marissa
Tomei won the Oscar).
He'd use expressions like "youse guys", but more to the point in
front of the judge, he said, "Maybe they were a couple of utes [sp?]
Your Honor", only to correct himself: "you-THS", he affectedly pronounced.
Some things are difficult to properly write/spell. A good cartoonist helps
me, particularly Steve Bell.
I think I'd write: 'When did you used to go to France?', and probably
pronounce it "use'to...", not with a "d". Some Londoners say "four-een"
while some Aussies say "four-deen". I say "fourteen".
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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At 22:20:47 on Sat, 11 Jun 2005, Erick Andrews <eandrews@bogusstar.net>
wrote in <sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-1SiLNgVesD7G@HAL9000>:
| Quote: | On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:45:35 UTC, Molly Mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
"Youse"?
That's funny. It would sound like Brooklyn (NY) talk
|
In that usage it would be pronounced "yooz" rather that "yoose", surely?
I was commenting on the differing pronunciations of use/used.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:44 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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Erick Andrews wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:45:35 UTC, Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
At 08:15:06 on Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in
3gsp9sFdtckqU1@individual.net>:
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
For which one might better say "When did you used to go to
France?".
I believe the spelling is "When did you use to go to France?"
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
"Youse"?
That's funny. It would sound like Brooklyn (NY) talk, sort of like --
was it the film with Joe Pesci? -- a courtroom "lawya" in the US South
wit [sic] an accent? (I think the title was "My Cousin Vinnie". Marissa
Tomei won the Oscar).
He'd use expressions like "youse guys", but more to the point in
front of the judge, he said, "Maybe they were a couple of utes [sp?]
Your Honor", only to correct himself: "you-THS", he affectedly pronounced.
Some things are difficult to properly write/spell. A good cartoonist helps
me, particularly Steve Bell.
I think I'd write: 'When did you used to go to France?', and probably
pronounce it "use'to...", not with a "d". Some Londoners say "four-een"
while some Aussies say "four-deen". I say "fourteen".
As an English teacher I can say that according to all the grammar books |
I've consulted the correct spelling is "didn't use to". the formk is
analogous to the past tense - indeed it is a type of past tense.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:10 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:44:53 UTC, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | As an English teacher I can say that according to all the grammar books
I've consulted the correct spelling is "didn't use to". the formk is
analogous to the past tense - indeed it is a type of past tense.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
|
Yes. And I should wonder what the "typesetters" are seeing for to-morrow's
[sic] 'grammars' to be printed? The focus is more likely on a keyboard for
the young and impressionable.
Oh, well. Time moves on, sometimes more quickly these days than the turtle
who ran the snail off the road. <g>
"Oh! It just all happened so fast!?"
I can't say I got a lecture in Grammar School about "use" and "used", though.
If so, I was either out sick or the bl**** dog ate my homework.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:10 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:31:10 UTC, Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 22:20:47 on Sat, 11 Jun 2005, Erick Andrews <eandrews@bogusstar.net
wrote in <sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-1SiLNgVesD7G@HAL9000>:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:45:35 UTC, Molly Mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
"Youse"?
That's funny. It would sound like Brooklyn (NY) talk
In that usage it would be pronounced "yooz" rather that "yoose", surely?
I was commenting on the differing pronunciations of use/used.
|
I understand. However, you just now made me look up in my new-ish COED
(printed 2004, Clays Ltd, Bungay, Suffolk), and "youse" is entered:
youse (also yous) pron. _dialect_ you (usually more than one person).
No, I'm not trying to "bait" you, in fact I was a bit surprised to find that entry.
"Youse" [sp?] is just something that's been stuck in my head for many, many years;
a meaning from pronunciation more than spelling, but I thought I understood your
spelling enough. Perhaps not. You might compare -- like a "jelly" doughnut v. a "jam"
doughnut type of thing. (And preferably not "donut", ugh!)
Dunno, maybe the new COED is getting aggressive? Else it's becoming more
English-speaking-consolidated?
I did look up "use" and "used" (separate entries) but honestly, I gave up.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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At 01:58:36 on Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Erick Andrews <eandrews@bogusstar.net>
wrote in <sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-lxorzoNx1iN0@HAL9000>:
| Quote: | I understand. However, you just now made me look up in my new-ish COED
(printed 2004, Clays Ltd, Bungay, Suffolk), and "youse" is entered:
youse (also yous) pron. _dialect_ you (usually more than one person).
|
Yes, it's in common use in Scots, both Lallans and Ulster Scots.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Philip Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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In message <dj7vE7B20+qCFwC4@molly.mockford>, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> writes
| Quote: | At 01:58:36 on Sun, 12 Jun 2005, Erick Andrews <eandrews@bogusstar.net
wrote in <sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-lxorzoNx1iN0@HAL9000>:
I understand. However, you just now made me look up in my new-ish COED
(printed 2004, Clays Ltd, Bungay, Suffolk), and "youse" is entered:
youse (also yous) pron. _dialect_ you (usually more than one person).
Yes, it's in common use in Scots, both Lallans and Ulster Scots.
|
<cough>
Geordieland, too.
--
Philip Powell
Looking north across the Derwent Valley and Northumberland
to The Cheviot |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Friday, in article <AflorsGPcTqCFwSE@molly.mockford>
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk "Molly Mockford" wrote:
| Quote: | At 08:15:06 on Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in
3gsp9sFdtckqU1@individual.net>:
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
For which one might better say "When did you used to go to
France?".
I believe the spelling is "When did you use to go to France?"
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
|
Chambers Dictionary agrees with you, specifying that the pronunciation of
"used", in *this context* is "yoost".
| Quote: | I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
|
The correct usage is "you used to go", NOT "you use to go"; I don't know
how Einde confused himself like this.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:42 pm
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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On Sunday, in article <3h17l9Femdf6U1@individual.net>
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de "Einde O'Callaghan"
wrote:
| Quote: | As an English teacher I can say that according to all the grammar books
I've consulted the correct spelling is "didn't use to". the formk is
analogous to the past tense - indeed it is a type of past tense.
|
There is also the contraction "usen't"; see Chambers.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:34 am
Post subject: Re: is 'one' always necessary |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Friday, in article <AflorsGPcTqCFwSE@molly.mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk "Molly Mockford" wrote:
At 08:15:06 on Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in
3gsp9sFdtckqU1@individual.net>:
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
For which one might better say "When did you used to go to
France?".
I believe the spelling is "When did you use to go to France?"
I've always been shaky on the spelling in this case, in an attempt to
reflect the pronunciation. I would normally pronounce the verb "use"
(=utilise) as "yooz" and the noun (either "utility" or "custom") as
"yoose"; for "used", I pronounce it as "yoozed" (="utilised") and
"yoosed" (="accustomed"). I can't think of any other expression that
the above where "use" (="accustom") is used in the present tense.
Chambers Dictionary agrees with you, specifying that the pronunciation of
"used", in *this context* is "yoost".
I am therefore tempted to add the d if obliged to make a decision -
since "yoose", other than as a noun, doesn't sound right to me. (I do
realise that it can't be justified on grammatical grounds - it's like
saying "When did you went?"!)
The correct usage is "you used to go", NOT "you use to go"; I don't know
how Einde confused himself like this.
While "You used not to go" is correct, so too is "you didn't use to go". |
If necessary I'll quote sources in various reputable grammar books and
textbooks I use in my work.
The pronunciation of "used to" and the last two words of "didn't use to"
is identical, which may be the source of some of the confusion.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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