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Message |
Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:43 pm
Post subject: Grammar and sense |
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Is there anything gramatically incorrect in the following
sentences ?
"If she doesn't have a date, she will meet her friends at
the Central for a drink and will go out with them for
Chinese food."
"If she doesn't have date, she meets her friends at the
Central for a drink and goes out with them for Chinese food."
When it comes to meaning, do the two sentences mean the same?
Same questions for :
"She would never cook on Friday nights."
"She never cooks on Friday nights."
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of
doing or not doing something special on a particular day.
But I must say that my English grammar courses are far
behind me. |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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"Isabelle Hamey" <hamey@alussinan.org> wrote in message
news:4295c455$0$1218$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr...
| Quote: |
Is there anything gramatically incorrect in the following
sentences ?
|
1a)
| Quote: | "If she doesn't have a date, she will meet her friends at
the Central for a drink and will go out with them for
Chinese food."
|
1b)
| Quote: | "If she doesn't have date, she meets her friends at the
Central for a drink and goes out with them for Chinese food."
When it comes to meaning, do the two sentences mean the same?
Same questions for :
|
2a)
| Quote: | "She would never cook on Friday nights."
|
2b)
| Quote: | "She never cooks on Friday nights."
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of
doing or not doing something special on a particular day.
But I must say that my English grammar courses are far
behind me.
|
To me, the use of "will" and "would", in the above sentences
at least, implies the specific intention of doing something,
while their absence implies custom or habit.
1a) probably refers to a specific occasion, while 1b) is just
what she usually does.
2a) seems more emphatic and hints to me that it is something
she has a very good reason for not doing, perhaps because
she is Jewish and would never dream of defiling the Sabbath
(starts at sunset on Friday). On the other hand, 2b) may be
because she nearly always goes out, or works late, or her
partner takes over the kitchen as a treat.
Of course, a good Catholic might always fetch fish & chips
on a Friday evening, so either 2a) or 2b) might be appropriate,
depending on how important or habitual the (non-)action. |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Isabelle Hamey wrote:
| Quote: |
When it comes to meaning, do the two sentences mean the same?
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The first would apply to a single occasion; the second would suggest a
habitual action.
| Quote: | "She would never cook on Friday nights."
"She never cooks on Friday nights."
|
Depending on stress:
SHE would never cook... we can't ask her to cook,
she would NEVER cook... surely she's not asked us to dinner?
she would never COOK.. whatever else she does, it's not cooking,
the second one is less versatile, mostly straight reporting, but a
stress on 'cook' would sound rather catty.
Paul Burke |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Isabelle Hamey wrote:
| Quote: | Is there anything gramatically incorrect in the following
sentences ?
"If she doesn't have a date, she will meet her friends at
the Central for a drink and will go out with them for
Chinese food."
"If she doesn't have date, she meets her friends at the
Central for a drink and goes out with them for Chinese food."
When it comes to meaning, do the two sentences mean the same?
Same questions for :
"She would never cook on Friday nights."
"She never cooks on Friday nights."
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of
doing or not doing something special on a particular day.
But I must say that my English grammar courses are far
behind me.
|
It all depends on context - there is essentially no difference in meaning
taken in isolation.
--
John Briggs |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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John Briggs a écrit :
| Quote: | Isabelle Hamey wrote:
Is there anything gramatically incorrect in the following
sentences ?
"If she doesn't have a date, she will meet her friends at
the Central for a drink and will go out with them for
Chinese food."
"If she doesn't have date, she meets her friends at the
Central for a drink and goes out with them for Chinese food."
When it comes to meaning, do the two sentences mean the same?
Same questions for :
"She would never cook on Friday nights."
"She never cooks on Friday nights."
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of
doing or not doing something special on a particular day.
But I must say that my English grammar courses are far
behind me.
It all depends on context - there is essentially no difference in meaning
taken in isolation.
|
It apparently is the way English is taught to French students. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Isabelle Hamey wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs a écrit :
Isabelle Hamey wrote:
Is there anything gramatically incorrect in the following
sentences ?
"If she doesn't have a date, she will meet her friends at
the Central for a drink and will go out with them for
Chinese food."
"If she doesn't have date, she meets her friends at the
Central for a drink and goes out with them for Chinese food."
When it comes to meaning, do the two sentences mean the same?
Same questions for :
"She would never cook on Friday nights."
"She never cooks on Friday nights."
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of
doing or not doing something special on a particular day.
But I must say that my English grammar courses are far
behind me.
It all depends on context - there is essentially no difference in
meaning taken in isolation.
It apparently is the way English is taught to French students.
|
I'm not disputing that - I'm just saying it isn't illustrated by those pairs
of sentences. You could try:
"If she hasn't a date, she will meet her friends at the Central for a drink
and will go out with them for Chinese food."
"When she doesn't have a date, she meets her friends at the Central for a
drink and goes out with them for Chinese food."
"She would never cook on a Friday night."
"She never cooks on Friday nights."
But it's still really too subtle to make much difference.
--
John Briggs |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:08 am
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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On Thursday, in article
<HNnle.2600$a5.1593@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
| Quote: | Isabelle Hamey wrote:
It apparently is the way English is taught to French students.
I'm not disputing that - I'm just saying it isn't illustrated by those pairs
of sentences. You could try:
"If she hasn't a date, she will meet her friends at the Central for a drink
and will go out with them for Chinese food."
|
Can we question the vocabulary too? I find "at the Central" totally
alien; I could perhaps live with "at the Centre", but would expect it to
say either "at the Blogsco Centre" (where Blogsco are the firm that own
and name the "centre") or "at the shopping centre" or "in the town
centre" (or perhaps even "at the central market/mall").
(I was surprised to visit, some 35 years ago, the Zentrum in East Berlin
to find it was a massive market. But what else can one expect of a city
which calls its "centre" Mitte?:-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Cymraes
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:16 pm
Post subject: |
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All four of your sentences are perfectly correct , Isabelle , and all four mean different things .
Your first sentence refers to a hypothesis in the future whilst the second refers to habit in the present .
Your third sentence refers to habit in the present too , whilst the fourth refers to habit in the past ( the frequentative use of 'would' )
The fourth sentence could also mean something else , depending on the context . It could be a conditional too i.e. she would never cook , even if we asked her nicely being the sub-text .
As is often the case with will and would , there may also be an idea of personal wish and will involved .
Cymraes . |
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Cymraes
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:19 pm
Post subject: |
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| ...sorry ; please read 'third' for 'fourth' and vice-versa in the above . |
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Cymraes
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:38 pm
Post subject: |
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... actually , I take back what I said about a possible conditional in the sentence "she would never cook on Fridays " . It is definitely an example of the frequentative use of would , i.e. habit in the past .
For it to be interpreted as a conditional , the sentence would have to read " she would never cook on A FRIDAY ". |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:12 am
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article
HNnle.2600$a5.1593@newsfe6-win.ntli.net
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
Isabelle Hamey wrote:
It apparently is the way English is taught to French students.
I'm not disputing that - I'm just saying it isn't illustrated by
those pairs of sentences. You could try:
"If she hasn't a date, she will meet her friends at the Central for
a drink and will go out with them for Chinese food."
Can we question the vocabulary too? I find "at the Central" totally
alien; I could perhaps live with "at the Centre", but would expect it
to say either "at the Blogsco Centre" (where Blogsco are the firm
that own and name the "centre") or "at the shopping centre" or "in
the town centre" (or perhaps even "at the central market/mall").
(I was surprised to visit, some 35 years ago, the Zentrum in East
Berlin to find it was a massive market. But what else can one expect
of a city which calls its "centre" Mitte?
|
But we just don't know what "the Central" is. It could be "The Central
Hotel" or "The Central Station", for example.
--
John Briggs |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:12 am
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article
HNnle.2600$a5.1593@newsfe6-win.ntli.net
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
Isabelle Hamey wrote:
It apparently is the way English is taught to French students.
I'm not disputing that - I'm just saying it isn't illustrated by those pairs
of sentences. You could try:
"If she hasn't a date, she will meet her friends at the Central for a drink
and will go out with them for Chinese food."
Can we question the vocabulary too? I find "at the Central" totally
alien; I could perhaps live with "at the Centre", but would expect it to
say either "at the Blogsco Centre" (where Blogsco are the firm that own
and name the "centre") or "at the shopping centre" or "in the town
centre" (or perhaps even "at the central market/mall").
In my home town to meet somebody "at the Central" meant to meet the in |
the Central Hotel or the Central Bar, which was attached to it.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Michèle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Dans son message précédent, Isabelle Hamey a écrit :
| Quote: | To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of doing or not doing
something special on a particular day. But I must say that my English grammar
courses are far behind me.
|
Your are not so old, Isabelle ? ;o) |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Michèle a écrit :
| Quote: | Dans son message précédent, Isabelle Hamey a écrit :
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of doing or not
doing something special on a particular day. But I must say that my
English grammar courses are far behind me.
Your are not so old, Isabelle ? ;o)
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I had my first English grammar course back in 1974. I was
ten at the time. |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Grammar and sense |
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Michèle a écrit :
| Quote: | Dans son message précédent, Isabelle Hamey a écrit :
To me, the use of "will" or "would" stresses the habit of doing or not
doing something special on a particular day. But I must say that my
English grammar courses are far behind me.
Your are not so old, Isabelle ? ;o)
|
I had my first English grammar course back in 1974. I was
ten at the time. |
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