| Author |
Message |
CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 6:34 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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"CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in news:5xxje.3513$pi1.18398
@newscontent-01.sprint.ca:
| Quote: |
"Wavy G" <imwavy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9ss81td0jpn0sfutibrqqs1tad01f0smb@4ax.com...
Somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout...But there is
no
joy in alt.usage.english--mighty "Mike Lyle" has struck out.
Wavy G wrote:
Question for my friends:
How about sentences that end with prepositions? I know it is
usually
considered incorrect, as in sentences like, "Where do you live
at?"
Obviously, the "at" is superfluous, but what about a sentence like
this: "I left earlier, but I came back." Is that incorrect, to
end
the sentence with "back"? If not, why? And if so, how else would
you word it? Please help me. I love you.
Nothing wrong with it, even if "back" were a preposition, but it's
an
adverb. There is no such rule: only if avoid it if it doesn't sound
nice. Tell them I said so.
Come on, I'm being serious, Lyle. I want to be able to write good,
and
I need help.
Old-fashioned teachers used to take off points or hit you for writing
(or sometimes for saying) "What country do you come from?" or "Who are
you going with?" instead of "From what country do you come?" and "With
whom are you going?" Nobody pays much attention to that sort of thing
these days, except in really formal writing.
Note that, as Donna said upthread, it isn't functioning as a
preposition unless it has an object, as it does in the two examples
above.
|
Donna's neither a linguist nor a grammarian, and she was wrong. You don't
seem to be a linguist or a grammarian either, and you are compounding
this mistake by repeating it. If you had bothered to analyze the original
sentence, you might have noticed that the object of "at" in the OP's
original sentence is "where":
Q1: "Where do you live?"
A1: "I live _at the end of the block_{prepositional phrase}."
Q2: "Where do you live at[1]?" OR
"You live _at where_{prepositional phrase}?"
A2: "At the end of the block."
The "at" in the last three sentences is a preposition and it has a direct
object in every case: the NP "the end of the block" in A1 and A2, and the
Wh-word "where" in Q2.
[1] This is the only condition under which "Where do you live at" can be
considered a grammatically correct sentence in Standard English, by the
way.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
'"History," Hegel said, "is a slaughterhouse."
And war is how the slaughter is carried out.'
Sydney H. Schanberg, _The Village Voice_,
May 17th, 2005 |
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Daniel Damouth
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:15 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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CyberCypher <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in
news:Xns965D5B11B626ccaue@139.175.55.249:
| Quote: | Wavy G ought to simply forget about the nonsense of not ending
sentences with prepositions. *"Where do you live at?" is not
standard English; the "at" is not only superfluous, it's
incorrect.
|
Does the knowledge that large numbers of native speakers in North
America change your notion that "Where do you live at" is incorrect?
-Dan Damouth |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:16 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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"Wavy G" <imwavy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9ss81td0jpn0sfutibrqqs1tad01f0smb@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout...But there is
no
joy in alt.usage.english--mighty "Mike Lyle" has struck out.
Wavy G wrote:
Question for my friends:
How about sentences that end with prepositions? I know it is
usually
considered incorrect, as in sentences like, "Where do you live
at?"
Obviously, the "at" is superfluous, but what about a sentence like
this: "I left earlier, but I came back." Is that incorrect, to
end
the sentence with "back"? If not, why? And if so, how else would
you word it? Please help me. I love you.
Nothing wrong with it, even if "back" were a preposition, but it's
an
adverb. There is no such rule: only if avoid it if it doesn't sound
nice. Tell them I said so.
Come on, I'm being serious, Lyle. I want to be able to write good,
and
I need help.
|
Old-fashioned teachers used to take off points or hit you for writing
(or sometimes for saying) "What country do you come from?" or "Who are
you going with?" instead of "From what country do you come?" and "With
whom are you going?" Nobody pays much attention to that sort of thing
these days, except in really formal writing.
Note that, as Donna said upthread, it isn't functioning as a
preposition unless it has an object, as it does in the two examples
above.
"Hi! Where're y'all from?"
"I'm from a part of the country where we don't end our sentences with
prepositions."
"Oh. Uh, OK, uh, where're y'all from, bitch?" |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:17 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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Daniel Damouth wrote:
| Quote: | CyberCypher wrote:
Wavy G ought to simply forget about the nonsense of not ending
sentences with prepositions. *"Where do you live at?" is not
standard English; the "at" is not only superfluous, it's
incorrect.
Does the knowledge that large numbers of native speakers in North
America change your notion that "Where do you live at" is incorrect?
|
Huh?
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 9:09 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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Daniel Damouth <damouth@san.rr.com> wrote in
news:Xns965CF1377113Bdamouthsanrrcom@66.75.169.12:
| Quote: | CyberCypher <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in
news:Xns965D61FA8FE97ccaue@139.175.55.249:
Daniel Damouth <damouth@san.rr.com> wrote in
news:Xns965CBB97B1F6Fdamouthsanrrcom@66.75.169.11:
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in
news:Xns965D5B11B626ccaue@139.175.55.249:
Wavy G ought to simply forget about the nonsense of not ending
sentences with prepositions. *"Where do you live at?" is not
standard English; the "at" is not only superfluous, it's
incorrect.
Does the knowledge that large numbers of native speakers in North
America change your notion that "Where do you live at" is
incorrect?
It might help me answer your question if you rewrite this as a
complete sentence with a meaning. Otherwise, all I can say is
"Wha'?"
I'm rather disappointed that you wouldn't admit to being able to
figure out what I meant to say.
|
Oh, come on, now. We all knew what you *meant* to say. It's just that
this is a usage group and I expect people who think they know what
they're talking about to say what they mean and mean what they say. I try
to do that, but I don't always succeed. No one does. And when one
doesn't, one gets questioned and asked for a clear expression so that
posters aren't talking to themselves. I hope you can appreciate that.
| Quote: | To spoon feed you: does the knowledge that large numbers of North
Americans regularly emit the sentence change your opinion that it is
"incorrect"?
|
Of course not. It may be perfectly normal for you and your friends to use
this non-standard form in conversation and even in informal writing, but
it doesn't pass muster in formal writing, except in the example I gave in
another post:
Q1: Where do you live?
A1: I live at the end of the block.
Q2: Where do you live at?
A2: At the end of the block.
In Q2, the questioner is responding directly to what was said in A1 and,
I infer, that the questioner didn't hear or understand "the end of the
block". Except in this type of circumstance, *"Where do you live at?" is
not standard English and not formal written English. People will say
anything, and just because people say it doesn't make it "correct". It
may be customary, but it's not correct.
You have to understand that some words have many meanings. All value
judgments --- words like "good/bad", "right/wrong", "art/kitch",
"correct/incorrect" --- are measured against some standard or other, and
when two people make a value judgment about the same thing, their
judgment has to be based on the same standard to have any comparative
meaning. 1+1=2 is "correct" only in base 10, for example.
Otherwise, it's quite clear that your standards are grossly different
from mine.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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R J Valentine
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:09:48 +0000 (UTC) CyberCypher <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
....
} You have to understand that some words have many meanings. All value
} judgments --- words like "good/bad", "right/wrong", "art/kitch",
} "correct/incorrect" --- are measured against some standard or other, and
} when two people make a value judgment about the same thing, their
} judgment has to be based on the same standard to have any comparative
} meaning. 1+1=2 is "correct" only in base 10, for example.
Oy!
} Otherwise, it's quite clear that your standards are grossly different
} from mine.
That's okay. TB's standards are grossly different from a lot of people's.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@theWorld.com>
Especially in English usage and math. |
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Daniel Damouth
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 12:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
|
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CyberCypher <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in
news:Xns965D61FA8FE97ccaue@139.175.55.249:
| Quote: | Daniel Damouth <damouth@san.rr.com> wrote in
news:Xns965CBB97B1F6Fdamouthsanrrcom@66.75.169.11:
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in
news:Xns965D5B11B626ccaue@139.175.55.249:
Wavy G ought to simply forget about the nonsense of not ending
sentences with prepositions. *"Where do you live at?" is not
standard English; the "at" is not only superfluous, it's
incorrect.
Does the knowledge that large numbers of native speakers in North
America change your notion that "Where do you live at" is
incorrect?
It might help me answer your question if you rewrite this as a
complete sentence with a meaning. Otherwise, all I can say is
"Wha'?"
|
I'm rather disappointed that you wouldn't admit to being able to
figure out what I meant to say.
To spoon feed you: does the knowledge that large numbers of North
Americans regularly emit the sentence change your opinion that it is
"incorrect"?
-Dan Damouth |
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CDB
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
|
|
"CyberCypher" <cybercypher@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
news:Xns965D7FEE4CE8Accaue@139.175.55.249...
| Quote: | "CDB" <unbellecd@sprint.ca> wrote in news:5xxje.3513$pi1.18398
@newscontent-01.sprint.ca:
"Wavy G" <imwavy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9ss81td0jpn0sfutibrqqs1tad01f0smb@4ax.com...
Somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout...But there
is
no
joy in alt.usage.english--mighty "Mike Lyle" has struck out.
Wavy G wrote:
Question for my friends:
How about sentences that end with prepositions? I know it is
usually
considered incorrect, as in sentences like, "Where do you live
at?"
Obviously, the "at" is superfluous, but what about a sentence
like
this: "I left earlier, but I came back." Is that incorrect, to
end
the sentence with "back"? If not, why? And if so, how else
would
you word it? Please help me. I love you.
Nothing wrong with it, even if "back" were a preposition, but it's
an
adverb. There is no such rule: only if avoid it if it doesn't
sound
nice. Tell them I said so.
Come on, I'm being serious, Lyle. I want to be able to write
good,
and
I need help.
Old-fashioned teachers used to take off points or hit you for
writing
(or sometimes for saying) "What country do you come from?" or "Who
are
you going with?" instead of "From what country do you come?" and
"With
whom are you going?" Nobody pays much attention to that sort of
thing
these days, except in really formal writing.
Note that, as Donna said upthread, it isn't functioning as a
preposition unless it has an object, as it does in the two examples
above.
Donna's neither a linguist nor a grammarian, and she was wrong. You
don't
seem to be a linguist or a grammarian either, and you are
compounding
this mistake by repeating it. If you had bothered to analyze the
original
sentence, you might have noticed that the object of "at" in the OP's
original sentence is "where":
|
Xiansheng, qing nin bie tai keqi!
| Quote: | Q1: "Where do you live?"
A1: "I live _at the end of the block_{prepositional phrase}."
Q2: "Where do you live at[1]?" OR
"You live _at where_{prepositional phrase}?"
A2: "At the end of the block."
The "at" in the last three sentences is a preposition and it has a
direct
object in every case: the NP "the end of the block" in A1 and A2,
and the
Wh-word "where" in Q2.
[1] This is the only condition under which "Where do you live at"
can be
considered a grammatically correct sentence in Standard English, by
the
way.
|
Definitely neither a linguist nor a grammarian, except in my amateur
interest in both subjects. I didn't address the original sentence,
"Where do you live at?" because it is non-standard and because Wavy
mentioned it only to dismiss it as irrelevant (in fact, I agree with
you that, in that non-standard example, which is otherwise similar to
the examples I offered, "at" certainly is, and functions as, a
preposition, govening the object "end"). The sentence he cited for
discussion was "I left earlier, but I came back." I think we all
agree that "back" in that sentence is not a preposition.
In the case of prepositions without a detectable object, as in Donna's
original example, "Look up!", which she contrasted with "The squirrel
ran up the tree," all I would say, as I said above, is that such a
word in such a context does not *function* as a preposition, but as an
adverb. Donna used the word "serve" instead of "function". I see from
one of your posts that you would say "particle" instead of "adverb".
OK. I don't think there's as much delicious disagreement here as
there might at first have appeared to be. CDB |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> wrote:
Donna Richoux writes:
You might notice this means you never *can* end a sentence with a
preposition. If you can end a sentence with it, it's not serving
as
a preposition, it's something else.
I find this claim surprising; I'm sure I've never seen it before.
Oh, all right, all right, you guys. I should have remembered to
waffle
sufficiently. I was trying to give Wavy G an instant lesson in why
"back" in "I came back" is not a preposition, and I apparently got
carried away.
Instead of picking holes in my observation, how about you help the
guy
with his question?
|
You reckon leaving your misleading skid unremarked was going to help
him with his question?
--
Mike. |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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CDB wrote:
[...]
| Quote: |
Definitely neither a linguist nor a grammarian, except in my amateur
interest in both subjects. I didn't address the original sentence,
"Where do you live at?" because it is non-standard and because Wavy
mentioned it only to dismiss it as irrelevant (in fact, I agree with
you that, in that non-standard example, which is otherwise similar to
the examples I offered, "at" certainly is, and functions as, a
preposition, govening the object "end"). The sentence he cited for
discussion was "I left earlier, but I came back." I think we all
agree that "back" in that sentence is not a preposition.
|
I apologize for the misunderstanding and for the stridency of my remark.
| Quote: | In the case of prepositions without a detectable object, as in Donna's
original example, "Look up!", which she contrasted with "The squirrel
ran up the tree," all I would say, as I said above, is that such a
word in such a context does not *function* as a preposition, but as an
adverb. Donna used the word "serve" instead of "function". I see from
one of your posts that you would say "particle" instead of "adverb".
OK. I don't think there's as much delicious disagreement here as
there might at first have appeared to be.
|
No, there's not much to disagree about, it seems. One of the problems
here is that there isn't enough agreement in the linguistics and grammar
literature about these topics or about the terminology. Many
disagreements are about the meanings of terms.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> wrote:
Donna Richoux writes:
You might notice this means you never *can* end a sentence with a
preposition. If you can end a sentence with it, it's not serving
as
a preposition, it's something else.
I find this claim surprising; I'm sure I've never seen it before.
Oh, all right, all right, you guys. I should have remembered to
waffle
sufficiently. I was trying to give Wavy G an instant lesson in why
"back" in "I came back" is not a preposition, and I apparently got
carried away.
Instead of picking holes in my observation, how about you help the
guy
with his question?
You reckon leaving your misleading skid unremarked was going to help
him with his question?
|
I don't know the expression "misleading skid" but I think I know what
you mean. I apologize for my error, and still I see a significant
difference between addressing *me* (teasing, correcting, whatever) about
it, and addressing the original poster's question.
(There's a sentence form in Dutch I was drilled on, which resembles your
examples. "That's what I have trouble with!" and the like. A sort of
emphatic inversion.)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
Instead of picking holes in my observation, how about you help
the
guy with his question?
You reckon leaving your misleading skid unremarked was going to
help
him with his question?
I don't know the expression "misleading skid" but I think I know
what
you mean. [...]
|
A more marked sub-species of slip. I did a 180-degree one in
Safeway's car park once. This was a few minutes after the school bus
driver and I, coming face to face on our little back road, had both
stopped...most unfortunately, our vehicles didn't. In the present
case, no headlight suffered.
--
Mike. |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 6:30 am
Post subject: Re: Please Check This Sentence |
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"CyberCypher" <CyberCypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
news:d6ngpq$hru$1@news.seed.net.tw...
[somthing snotty in Chinese]
| Quote: | I apologize for the misunderstanding and for the stridency of my
remark.
Apologies all round? Snottiness one of my besetting sins, abetted by |
a quick finger on the send button. I just hardly ever find a
situation in which to parade my inadequate command of that language.
CDB, face down |
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