| Author |
Message |
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:15 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Wednesday, in article <wmr0FHlJWClCFw$Y@molly.mockford>
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk "Molly Mockford" wrote:
| Quote: | [1] A "coat of arms" usually includes both a device and a motto, but
some of the oldest ones have no motto, as they were first used in the
days when a device alone was normal.
|
Those interested in Heraldry will contend that there is no such thing as
"a coat of arms". They'll generally refer to "an achievement" or
possibly "armorial bearings". The whole kit and caboodle does indeed
include the shield (or lozenge, or whatever as appropriate to the holder)
AND the crest AND the supporters AND the motto.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Peter Duncanson
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:16 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Wed, 25 May 2005 19:24:47 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton
Kelly}) wrote:
| Quote: | On Tuesday, in article
BEB8E149.6B95%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr "Didier Pelleton" wrote:
John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air force'.
Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit
an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html
Whilst the article says he created the saying in 1945, it also refers to
a journal with what appears to be a date (25.1.13), so perhaps something
originally was said in 1913?
I'm disappointed that there seem to be no links off that page to anywhere
else; ISTM that the site-author might have other gems squirrelled away.
(It's not immediately obvious to what he refers when he speaks of "Scots"
(as a language/dialect), for instance.)
|
He appears to be referring to the language/dialect known as "Scots".
Googling for "The Scots Language" finds lots of information about the
language/dialect.
The following is from a website, whose url I have lost.
<quote>
Scots
The form of the English language as traditionally spoken and written in
Scotland, regarded by some scholars as a distinct language. Scots derives
from the Northumbrian dialect of Anglo-Saxon or Old English, and has been a
literary language since the 14th century.
It is also known as Inglis (now archaic, and a variant of ‘English’),
Lallans (‘Lowlands’), Lowland Scots (in contrast with the Gaelic of the
Highlands and Islands), and ‘the Doric’ (as a rustic language in contrast
with the ‘Attic’ or ‘Athenian’ language of Edinburgh’s literati, especially
in the 18th century). It is also often referred to as Broad Scots in
contrast to the anglicized language of the middle classes.
Scots has been spoken in southeast Scotland since the 7th century. During
the Middle Ages it spread to the far north, blending with the Norn dialects
of Orkney and Shetland (once distinct varieties of Norse). Scots has a wide
range of poetry, ballads, and prose records, including two national epic
poems: John Barbour’s Brus and Blind Harry’s Wallace. With the
transfer of the court to England upon the Union of the Crowns in 1603 and
the dissemination of the King James Bible, Scots ceased to be a national and
court language, but has retained its vitality among the general population
and in various literary and linguistic revivals.
</quote>
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Wed, 25 May 2005 18:04:08 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
<hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Interesting question. I think a lot if it comes down to the fact that the
English are very complacent about our language. We don't have the same sort
of pride in it that the French do in French.
What else is left from their former grandeur that the French
could have pride in? Politics? Economy? Arts? Sports?
|
As far as I can see, France hasn't even managed to achieve the
glorious "Nul Points" in the Eurovision Song Contest - surely the only
prize worth winning in the world of music.
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Tuesday, in article
BEB8E149.6B95%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr "Didier Pelleton" wrote:
John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air
force'. Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh
iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html
Whilst the article says he created the saying in 1945, it also refers
to a journal with what appears to be a date (25.1.13), so perhaps
something originally was said in 1913?
|
No, it appears that the reference is Vol. 25, No. 1, p. 13 (1945).
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Isabelle Hamey
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:38 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
John Briggs a écrit :
| Quote: | Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
On Tuesday, in article
BEB8E149.6B95%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr "Didier Pelleton" wrote:
John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air
force'. Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh
iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html
Whilst the article says he created the saying in 1945, it also refers
to a journal with what appears to be a date (25.1.13), so perhaps
something originally was said in 1913?
No, it appears that the reference is Vol. 25, No. 1, p. 13 (1945).
|
Joli ! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:10 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:46:12 +0100, John Hall
nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
In article <BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>,
Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> writes:
The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other
old word as 'devise'?
"Devise" is a verb. The corresponding noun is "device". However none
of its possible meanings corresponds to "motto".
I don't know, though.
The shades of night were falling fast,
As through an Alpine village passed
A youth, who bore, 'mid snow and ice,
A banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!
|
It's called a device because it's on a banner. Anything on a heraldic or
quasi-heraldic thing is a device.
| Quote: | The youth certainly goes on to use it as his "maxim adopted as a rule
of conduct" (COD) - some might say to excess. I suppose Longfellow
could have used motto and rhymed it with grotto or blotto but the poem
might have lost a certain je ne sais quoi.
|
The parody of it (written by Marriott Edgar and performed by Stanley
Holloway) starts
"'Twere getting dusk, one winter's night
When up ther clough there came in sight
A lad who carried through the snow
A banner with this 'ere motto,
Up'ards!"
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Erick Andrews
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Wed, 25 May 2005 07:25:21 UTC, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Erick Andrews wrote:
'Honi soit qui mal y pense'.
The translation, I recall, was 'evil to him who thinks evil', an incident about
the Lady's garter (who was she?) and whatever Ed the 3rd did do with it.
Or the variant "honi soit qui mal y boit": "evil to him who evil drinks".
"Petite pluie abat grand vent" ?
A little piss beats a big fart? Or as my Granny would have said, "It'll
either rain or go dark before morning".
Paul Burke
|
The translation I have is "A soft answer turneth away wrath" but
litterally "Little rain stills great wind".
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:13 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
"k1llerakum" <xhosa9@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d725lq$b3d$1@sun-cc204.lut.ac.uk...
| Quote: |
Interesting question. I think a lot if it comes down to the fact that the
English are very complacent about our language. We don't have the same
sort
of pride in it that the French do in French.
I work with international students in the UK from all round the world so
consequently end up speaking a form of international English with bits of
other languages (words, syntax and grammar) added in most of the time.
Makes life more colourful and to be honest I have no real interest in
keeping the English (as in the perceived "correct" English language)
alive.
The more languages melt together the better as far as i am concerned. as
long as people can communicate it think that is more important than what
"rules" they follow.
|
It is not because we have no pride in the language. Many of us do.
A language is not only a medium of communication but also
repository of culture. Once a language becomes widely used
among people who do not share the original culture it is inevitable
that the two aspects come into conflict. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Wednesday, in article <wmr0FHlJWClCFw$Y@molly.mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk "Molly Mockford" wrote:
[1] A "coat of arms" usually includes both a device and a motto, but
some of the oldest ones have no motto, as they were first used in the
days when a device alone was normal.
Those interested in Heraldry will contend that there is no such thing
as "a coat of arms". They'll generally refer to "an achievement" or
possibly "armorial bearings". The whole kit and caboodle does indeed
include the shield (or lozenge, or whatever as appropriate to the
holder) AND the crest AND the supporters AND the motto.
|
But not the badge or other, er, device...
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Didier Pelleton
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:47 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Nick Wagg écrivit :
| Quote: | A language is not only a medium of communication but also
repository of culture.
|
Bravo. The problem isn't the flood in France by the English culture, but
by the Globish, and particulary the franglish. Our bourgeoisie is silly and
illiterate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:37 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Wed, 25 May 2005 21:18:00 -0000, "Erick Andrews"
<eandrews@bogusstar.net> wrote:
| Quote: | The translation I have is "A soft answer turneth away wrath"
|
But a Microsoft answer...
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Erick Andrews
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Thu, 26 May 2005 10:37:27 UTC, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 25 May 2005 21:18:00 -0000, "Erick Andrews"
eandrews@bogusstar.net> wrote:
The translation I have is "A soft answer turneth away wrath"
But a Microsoft answer...
|
That went over my head.
My old French grammar has no such reference. 
May I ask what is the connexion [sic]? Cheers.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Thursday, in article <NMgle.8$Su1.0@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
| Quote: | Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
On Wednesday, in article <wmr0FHlJWClCFw$Y@molly.mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk "Molly Mockford" wrote:
[1] A "coat of arms" usually includes both a device and a motto, but
some of the oldest ones have no motto, as they were first used in the
days when a device alone was normal.
Those interested in Heraldry will contend that there is no such thing
as "a coat of arms". They'll generally refer to "an achievement" or
possibly "armorial bearings". The whole kit and caboodle does indeed
include the shield (or lozenge, or whatever as appropriate to the
holder) AND the crest AND the supporters AND the motto.
But not the badge or other, er, device...
|
Badges are akin to, but separate from, armorial bearings. "Devices" are
not the terminology used in heraldry, which refers instead to
"ordinaries" and "sub-ordinaries" for the various bits and bobs that
appear upon a shield. (Collectively, all these "devices" are called
"charges".)
For instance, I went to a lecture a couple of days ago, given by a
visiting Professor Emiritus of the University of Newcastle. All of his
slides showed the arms of (presumably) the university. It would be very
easy to describe (or "emblazon" them) unambiguously: Azure, a Cross
Moline argent; on a chief of the second, a Lion Passant Gardant gules.
Which means: on a field of blue, a cross (with curly ends, like that used
to re-inforce a millstone) in white (argent==silver==white in heraldry).
In the upper part of the shield (approx a quarter), which is also white
instead, a lion seen sideways on, walking and with the face turned toward
the viewer (as in the "Three Lions on the Shirt") in red.
The "cross moline" and "chief" are ordinaries; the "lion passant gardant"
is a sub-ordinary.
(I may have got my red and blue counterposed: believe it or not, when I
went to check at www.ncl.ac.uk, they only had the shield in monochrome.)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Graeme Thomas
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 5:19 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
In article <3fk528F8b43nU2@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
<michael.stevens@which.net> writes
| Quote: | The full set of
arms includes the coat of arms along with any or all of the following: a
motto, a helmet or crown (which may have a crest on it),
|
In traditional English heraldry if there is a crown it is in addition to
a helmet. Untitled armigers get a torse (a rope circle) or a circlet to
hold the mantling. Titled armigers get a coronet, while royalty get the
crown.
| Quote: | mantling (a
decorative device originally representing the sun-shading cloth hanging down
the back of the helmet in bright sunny weather)
|
Some people (and if I had a better memory I could name them) get a whole
cloak as a background, rather than the mantling.
| Quote: | supporters either side and
|
Supporters are usually only allowed for titled armigers.
| Quote: | something whose name escapes me for the supporters to stand on.
|
That's the compartment.
In addition there can be a banner, which possibly bears a badge/
| Quote: | The whole
thing is properly described as an "achievement of arms". All sorts of other
things can also be involved such as the garter surrounding the shield in the
UK Royal Arms.
|
--
Graeme Thomas |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:51 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Fri, 27 May 2005, Graeme Thomas wrote:
| Quote: | In article <3fk528F8b43nU2@individual.net>, Mike Stevens
michael.stevens@which.net> writes
mantling (a decorative device originally representing the sun-shading
cloth hanging down the back of the helmet in bright sunny weather)
Some people (and if I had a better memory I could name them) get a whole
cloak as a background, rather than the mantling.
|
No people get such a thing in Britain. It is a feature of heraldry in
some other countries.
Matthew Huntbach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in