| Author |
Message |
Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:54 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | The shades of night were falling fast,
As through an Alpine village passed
A youth, who bore, ‘mid snow and ice,
A banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!
|
The shades of hight were falling fast,
The snow was falling faster,
As through an Alpine village passed
An Alpine village pastor...
Anon.
Paul Burke
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:15:43 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
<hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
| Quote: | To me "bikers" in French seems to be restricted to those
older men riding huge and loud motorbikes at low speed.
|
We use "born-again bikers" to describe middle aged men who suddenly
decide to relive their youth by buying a huge motorbike and fancy
leathers. It seems to have become the standard term in Britain but I
don't know about elsewhere. They don't seem so keen on low speed e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/3660537.stm
It's a jocular analogy with "born-again Christians". I can't imagine
it was meant to be flattering but it now seems to have been adopted by
some as a term of pride.
--
Phil C. |
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Paul D Clark
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:18 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:54:04 +0100, Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | The shades of hight were falling fast,
The snow was falling faster,
As through an Alpine village passed
An Alpine village pastor...
Anon.
|
It's by A.E. Housman. At least, alternate lines are.
--
Paul Clark you.missed -> umist to reply
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Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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|
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:54:04 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Phil C. wrote:
The shades of night were falling fast,
As through an Alpine village passed
A youth, who bore, ‘mid snow and ice,
A banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!
The shades of hight were falling fast,
The snow was falling faster,
As through an Alpine village passed
An Alpine village pastor...
|
The shades of night were falling fast
And in the mountain passes
The youth was done; he thought line one
meant an offer on sunglasses.
--
Phil C. |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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|
Phil C. a écrit :
| Quote: | On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:15:43 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
To me "bikers" in French seems to be restricted to those
older men riding huge and loud motorbikes at low speed.
We use "born-again bikers" to describe middle aged men who suddenly
decide to relive their youth by buying a huge motorbike and fancy
leathers. It seems to have become the standard term in Britain but I
don't know about elsewhere. They don't seem so keen on low speed e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/3660537.stm
It's a jocular analogy with "born-again Christians". I can't imagine
it was meant to be flattering but it now seems to have been adopted by
some as a term of pride.
|
I didn't know the expression. Thanks a lot.
Do they look the same as the French bikers you can see here :
http://www.blue-beach-bikers.com/trombine/trombino.htm
In fact, "biker" in French, at least in the sense I guess
Didier Pelleton was using the word, means those men who have
always driven motorbikes and keep on showing off with their
machines even if, when nearing sixty, they drive them slowly. |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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|
Isabelle Hamey a écrit :
| Quote: | Phil C. a écrit :
On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:15:43 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
To me "bikers" in French seems to be restricted to those older men
riding huge and loud motorbikes at low speed.
We use "born-again bikers" to describe middle aged men who suddenly
decide to relive their youth by buying a huge motorbike and fancy
leathers. It seems to have become the standard term in Britain but I
don't know about elsewhere. They don't seem so keen on low speed e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/3660537.stm
It's a jocular analogy with "born-again Christians". I can't imagine
it was meant to be flattering but it now seems to have been adopted by
some as a term of pride.
I didn't know the expression. Thanks a lot.
Do they look the same as the French bikers you can see here :
http://www.blue-beach-bikers.com/trombine/trombino.htm
In fact, "biker" in French, at least in the sense I guess Didier
Pelleton was using the word, means those men who have always driven
motorbikes and keep on showing off with their machines even if, when
nearing sixty, they drive them slowly.
|
I should have written "to ride" instead of "to drive". Sorry
for the globish. |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Tuesday, in article
<BEB8E149.6B95%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr "Didier Pelleton" wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air force'.
Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit
an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html
|
Whilst the article says he created the saying in 1945, it also refers to
a journal with what appears to be a date (25.1.13), so perhaps something
originally was said in 1913?
I'm disappointed that there seem to be no links off that page to anywhere
else; ISTM that the site-author might have other gems squirrelled away.
(It's not immediately obvious to what he refers when he speaks of "Scots"
(as a language/dialect), for instance.)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:10 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:46:12 +0100, John Hall
nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
In article <BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>,
Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> writes:
The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other
old word as 'devise'?
"Devise" is a verb. The corresponding noun is "device". However none
of its possible meanings corresponds to "motto".
I don't know, though.
The shades of night were falling fast,
As through an Alpine village passed
A youth, who bore, 'mid snow and ice,
A banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/longfellow/excelsior.html
The youth certainly goes on to use it as his "maxim adopted as a rule
of conduct" (COD) - some might say to excess. I suppose Longfellow
could have used motto and rhymed it with grotto or blotto but the poem
might have lost a certain je ne sais quoi.
|
It is also ungrammatical in Latin, as "Excelsior" means "Higher than".
--
John Briggs |
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k1llerakum
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
"Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3f4d60F5us0dU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Good evening,
I want to beg for your indulgence: on one hand, English
is not my mother tongue, so that I am likely to make no
end of mistakes; on the other hand, I have the gall to
post to a uk. newsgroup while I'm not even British; and
on the third hand (how freaky), I'll be speaking about a
subject which I gather is far from being a hot topic here.
Should you however bear with me, here it is:
I am a frequent contributor to fr.lettres.langue.francaise,
a francophone newsgroup rather similar to this one, with
this interesting difference that a significant number of
its posts are about, er, let us call it the "language war"
between English and French (e.g. the decline in the use
of French in Europe). Several contributors are passionate
about that, especially Frenchmen. Now I am a Belgian and
I am using a lot of English at work (when we have a meeting
with colleagues from Luxemburg and the Netherlands, guess
the working language?), so I am reluctant to take sides in
this "war". Someone addressed me recently, writing:
"You never answer when I ask you why we shouldn't be
pleased when /la francophonie/ progresses, or grieve
when it retreats, or get annoyed by elusive reactions."
My answer was:
"I am a win-win fan. I cannot be pleased by a progress
if it means a retreat by someone else. But as far as
languages are concerned, it is possible, and that's the
point, to have progress /everywhere/. Nothing forbids
/anyone/ from speaking several languages, save laziness
and inertia, sometimes also, alas! xenophobia and/or
contempt. And nothing forbids both French and English
to progress together, and even to take advantage of
their synergies to back each other up. But if we stick
to concepts of struggle, hereditary enemy, and I-win-
only-if-you-lose, then success won't be there."
Upon which it was suggested that I submit my subversive
ideas to an English-speaking newsgroup, just to see how
they would react. I took up the challenge, and here I am,
hoping I'm not too much of an intruder.
Thank you for your kind attention and maybe for your
feedback. You are also welcome if you wish to direct me
to a more adequate newsgroup for my ramblings (europa.
linguas, maybe? but someone mentioned you first).
--
Pierre Hallet (Brussels)
Interesting question. I think a lot if it comes down to the fact that the |
English are very complacent about our language. We don't have the same sort
of pride in it that the French do in French.
I work with international students in the UK from all round the world so
consequently end up speaking a form of international English with bits of
other languages (words, syntax and grammar) added in most of the time.
Makes life more colourful and to be honest I have no real interest in
keeping the English (as in the perceived "correct" English language) alive.
The more languages melt together the better as far as i am concerned. as
long as people can communicate it think that is more important than what
"rules" they follow.
Lou |
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Mike Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:47 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 01:22:11 on Wed, 25 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other
old word as 'devise'? "Slogan" doesn't work in this sense?
"Devise" is a verb in English; the equivalent noun is "device".
(There are many verb-noun pairs with similar spelling.) A device, in
olden days, referred to the design painted on a knight's shield or
banner, for the purpose of identification. It did not include words,
and when words were added (to form a combination generally known as a
"coat of arms"[1]) they were definitely referred to as a motto. (My
favourite is the Latin tag "festina lente" - "hasten slowly" or "more
haste less speed" - which was adopted as the motto of the Onslow
family!)
[1] A "coat of arms" usually includes both a device and a motto, but
some of the oldest ones have no motto, as they were first used in the
days when a device alone was normal.
|
I suspect that's a bit oversimplified. My understanding is that the phrase
"coat of arms" refers to the whole of what's on the shield (or lozenge for a
lady). "Device" means one element of it, such as a cross, a lion etc. So,
for example, the Scottish royal arms has the lion rampant as its central
device, but the border and the whole colour scheme are equally parts of the
coat of arms. Other coats of arms, such as the UK Royal Arms, have a number
of different devices in different poarts of the shield. The full set of
arms includes the coat of arms along with any or all of the following: a
motto, a helmet or crown (which may have a crest on it), mantling (a
decorative device originally representing the sun-shading cloth hanging down
the back of the helmet in bright sunny weather) supporters either side and
something whose name escapes me for the supporters to stand on. The whole
thing is properly described as an "achievement of arms". All sorts of other
things can also be involved such as the garter surrounding the shield in the
UK Royal Arms.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
k1llerakum a écrit :
| Quote: | "Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3f4d60F5us0dU1@individual.net...
Good evening,
I want to beg for your indulgence: on one hand, English
is not my mother tongue, so that I am likely to make no
end of mistakes; on the other hand, I have the gall to
post to a uk. newsgroup while I'm not even British; and
on the third hand (how freaky), I'll be speaking about a
subject which I gather is far from being a hot topic here.
Should you however bear with me, here it is:
I am a frequent contributor to fr.lettres.langue.francaise,
a francophone newsgroup rather similar to this one, with
this interesting difference that a significant number of
its posts are about, er, let us call it the "language war"
between English and French (e.g. the decline in the use
of French in Europe). Several contributors are passionate
about that, especially Frenchmen. Now I am a Belgian and
I am using a lot of English at work (when we have a meeting
with colleagues from Luxemburg and the Netherlands, guess
the working language?), so I am reluctant to take sides in
this "war". Someone addressed me recently, writing:
"You never answer when I ask you why we shouldn't be
pleased when /la francophonie/ progresses, or grieve
when it retreats, or get annoyed by elusive reactions."
My answer was:
"I am a win-win fan. I cannot be pleased by a progress
if it means a retreat by someone else. But as far as
languages are concerned, it is possible, and that's the
point, to have progress /everywhere/. Nothing forbids
/anyone/ from speaking several languages, save laziness
and inertia, sometimes also, alas! xenophobia and/or
contempt. And nothing forbids both French and English
to progress together, and even to take advantage of
their synergies to back each other up. But if we stick
to concepts of struggle, hereditary enemy, and I-win-
only-if-you-lose, then success won't be there."
Upon which it was suggested that I submit my subversive
ideas to an English-speaking newsgroup, just to see how
they would react. I took up the challenge, and here I am,
hoping I'm not too much of an intruder.
Thank you for your kind attention and maybe for your
feedback. You are also welcome if you wish to direct me
to a more adequate newsgroup for my ramblings (europa.
linguas, maybe? but someone mentioned you first).
--
Pierre Hallet (Brussels)
Interesting question. I think a lot if it comes down to the fact that the
English are very complacent about our language. We don't have the same sort
of pride in it that the French do in French.
|
What else is left from their former grandeur that the French
could have pride in? Politics? Economy? Arts? Sports? |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Paul Burke
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:17 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Isabelle Hamey wrote:
| Quote: | What else is left from their former grandeur that the French could have
pride in? Politics? Economy? Arts? Sports?
|
The architecture (the vernacular varieties most particularly) is not at
all bad. And of course food and wine- again the regional rather than the
big guns. You've got some nice canals and steam trains too  There's
music- the vibrant folk tradition, and the cherishing of it, puts
England at least to shame.
Paul Burke |
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|
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Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:05:29 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
<hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Phil C. a écrit :
On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:15:43 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
To me "bikers" in French seems to be restricted to those
older men riding huge and loud motorbikes at low speed.
We use "born-again bikers" to describe middle aged men who suddenly
decide to relive their youth by buying a huge motorbike and fancy
leathers. It seems to have become the standard term in Britain but I
don't know about elsewhere. They don't seem so keen on low speed e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/3660537.stm
It's a jocular analogy with "born-again Christians". I can't imagine
it was meant to be flattering but it now seems to have been adopted by
some as a term of pride.
I didn't know the expression. Thanks a lot.
Do they look the same as the French bikers you can see here :
http://www.blue-beach-bikers.com/trombine/trombino.htm
In fact, "biker" in French, at least in the sense I guess
Didier Pelleton was using the word, means those men who have
always driven motorbikes and keep on showing off with their
machines even if, when nearing sixty, they drive them slowly.
|
The stereotypical "born again biker" is trying to look like a
professional racing biker, with a lurid, expensive outfit to go with
his (or her) massive motorbike. "Biker" is used generically to cover
all sorts of people whose hobby is bikes - including some like those
you describe. I don't know if that group have got a more specific
nickname.
But I've never sat on a motorbike in my life - others may know more.
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
"Phil C." wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:05:29 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
Phil C. a écrit :
On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:15:43 +0200, Isabelle Hamey
hamey@alussinan.org> wrote:
To me "bikers" in French seems to be restricted to those
older men riding huge and loud motorbikes at low speed.
We use "born-again bikers" to describe middle aged men who suddenly
decide to relive their youth by buying a huge motorbike and fancy
leathers. It seems to have become the standard term in Britain but I
don't know about elsewhere. They don't seem so keen on low speed e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/3660537.stm
It's a jocular analogy with "born-again Christians". I can't imagine
it was meant to be flattering but it now seems to have been adopted by
some as a term of pride.
I didn't know the expression. Thanks a lot.
Do they look the same as the French bikers you can see here :
http://www.blue-beach-bikers.com/trombine/trombino.htm
In fact, "biker" in French, at least in the sense I guess
Didier Pelleton was using the word, means those men who have
always driven motorbikes and keep on showing off with their
machines even if, when nearing sixty, they drive them slowly.
The stereotypical "born again biker" is trying to look like a
professional racing biker, with a lurid, expensive outfit to go with
his (or her) massive motorbike. "Biker" is used generically to cover
all sorts of people whose hobby is bikes - including some like those
you describe. I don't know if that group have got a more specific
nickname.
But I've never sat on a motorbike in my life - others may know more.
|
Nor have I. Well, to be honest, I have but I was sitting on the
passenger seat. |
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|
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | Isabelle Hamey wrote:
What else is left from their former grandeur that the French could have
pride in? Politics? Economy? Arts? Sports?
The architecture (the vernacular varieties most particularly) is not at
all bad. And of course food and wine- again the regional rather than the
big guns. You've got some nice canals and steam trains too There's
music- the vibrant folk tradition, and the cherishing of it, puts
England at least to shame.
|
Sad, isn't it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
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