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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:23 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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At 21:30:13 on Tue, 24 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
<didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
<BEB94D65.6C0B%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
| Quote: |     Is ‹ Honni soit qui mal y pense › a motto, a slogan, a watchword, in
standard English ? According to you and Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary,
it would seem that it is a slogan, a word which we stole you and which we
use in publicity. An other 'faux-ami'.
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It's "Honi soit..." (with only one n). It's mediaeval French as spoken
at Court in the fourteenth century, and has persisted to the modern day
simply because it was adopted as the motto of the Order of the Garter,
founded by Edward III in 1348. "Honi" means "shame", which I think is
now "honte" in modern French.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:22 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Molly Mockford écrivit :
| Quote: | It's "Honi soit..." (with only one n).
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You're rigth, but in English! En français, we write "Honni soit...",
from the verb « honnir ». Your orthography is more ancient. Anyway, this
motto, very beautiful, belongs to you.
We have an excellent dictionary on line, "Le trésor de la langue
française":
http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv4/showps.exe?p=combi.htm;java=no;
You tape-write "honnir" inside "Correcteur d'erreurs". You'll find the
etymology of this word, and at "honni", the same motto.
| Quote: | It's mediaeval French as spoken at Court in the fourteenth century, and has
persisted to the modern day simply because it was adopted as the motto
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The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other old
word as 'devise'? "Slogan" doesn't work in this sense?
| Quote: | of the Order of the Garter, founded by Edward III in 1348. "Honi" means
"shame", which I think is now "honte" in modern French.
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Rather "honte à", "shame on". « Honte à celui qui y voit du mal. » in
modern French. |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:15 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:23:21 UTC, Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 21:30:13 on Tue, 24 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
BEB94D65.6C0B%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
    Is ‹ Honni soit qui mal y pense › a motto, a slogan, a watchword, in
standard English ? According to you and Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary,
it would seem that it is a slogan, a word which we stole you and which we
use in publicity. An other 'faux-ami'.
It's "Honi soit..." (with only one n). It's mediaeval French as spoken
at Court in the fourteenth century, and has persisted to the modern day
simply because it was adopted as the motto of the Order of the Garter,
founded by Edward III in 1348. "Honi" means "shame", which I think is
now "honte" in modern French.
|
'Honi soit qui mal y pense'.
Spot on. You hit a few dusty brain cells of mine because this is like a
deep-rooted epithet I learnt in my old-ish, French learning text. "Honi" is
the way it was spelt, for sure, as you point out.
Last year I dug out all my dictionary ammo for a Canadian Francophone to
try to prove this point. Well, I came close, but not convincingly enough for
her -- too doctrinaire on my part, I guess, as a non-native French speaker --
but I still felt that my old French grammar-text was right.
The translation, I recall, was 'evil to him who thinks evil', an incident about
the Lady's garter (who was she?) and whatever Ed the 3rd did do with it.
I think "honi' has evolved toward related French words meaning either 'honour'
or 'shame'. That's about as far as I could get. "Honi" [sic] is not in use today.
Yes, I think it still the origin of today's chivalric "Order of the Garter" in
England. Oui?
---
I like this thread. How 'bout...
"Petite pluie abat grand vent" ?
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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At 01:22:11 on Wed, 25 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
<didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
<BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
| Quote: | The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other old
word as 'devise'? "Slogan" doesn't work in this sense?
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"Devise" is a verb in English; the equivalent noun is "device". (There
are many verb-noun pairs with similar spelling.) A device, in olden
days, referred to the design painted on a knight's shield or banner, for
the purpose of identification. It did not include words, and when words
were added (to form a combination generally known as a "coat of
arms"[1]) they were definitely referred to as a motto. (My favourite is
the Latin tag "festina lente" - "hasten slowly" or "more haste less
speed" - which was adopted as the motto of the Onslow family!)
[1] A "coat of arms" usually includes both a device and a motto, but
some of the oldest ones have no motto, as they were first used in the
days when a device alone was normal.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:25 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Erick Andrews wrote:
| Quote: | 'Honi soit qui mal y pense'.
The translation, I recall, was 'evil to him who thinks evil', an incident about
the Lady's garter (who was she?) and whatever Ed the 3rd did do with it.
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Or the variant "honi soit qui mal y boit": "evil to him who evil drinks".
| Quote: | "Petite pluie abat grand vent" ?
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A little piss beats a big fart? Or as my Granny would have said, "It'll
either rain or go dark before morning".
Paul Burke |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:34 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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"Erick Andrews" <eandrews@bogusstar.net> wrote in message
news:sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-rXu4xnBLJ3Hp@HAL9000...
| Quote: |
The translation, I recall, was 'evil to him who thinks evil', an incident
about
the Lady's garter (who was she?) and whatever Ed the 3rd did do with it.
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Sellars and Yeatman say something like...
"Honey, your silk stocking's hanging down"
which is why the Order of the Garter was founded. |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 2:46 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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In article <BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>,
Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> writes:
| Quote: | The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other old
word as 'devise'?
|
"Devise" is a verb. The corresponding noun is "device". However none of
its possible meanings corresponds to "motto".
| Quote: | "Slogan" doesn't work in this sense?
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Not really, no.
--
John Hall
"Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes."
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) |
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Matthew Huntbach
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:26 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005, Erick Andrews wrote:
| Quote: | The translation, I recall, was 'evil to him who thinks evil', an incident
about the Lady's garter (who was she?) and whatever Ed the 3rd did do
with it.
|
The story is that the lady's garter fell down onto the floor, and this was
taken by onlookers as a sign of loose morals. The King was defending her
honour by saying this was just an accident and anyone who thought bad of
her because of it should be thought bad of themselves.
Matthew Huntbach |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:28 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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John Hall a écrit :
| Quote: | In article <BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>,
Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> writes:
The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other old
word as 'devise'?
"Devise" is a verb. The corresponding noun is "device". However none of
its possible meanings corresponds to "motto".
|
As far as I can gather, "device" is "emblème" in French, and
"motto" is "devise". Is "emblem" a synonym to "device" ? |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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Isabelle Hamey wrote:
| Quote: | John of Aix a écrit :
'Motards' is more common though.
"motard" is the common
word for the rest of the motorbike riders.
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Convergent divergences in the thread! Whose motto was 'Moult me tarde',
parodied as 'moutarde' meaning 'burn everything'?
Paul Burke |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:08 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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In article <42944544$0$800$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>,
Isabelle Hamey <hamey@alussinan.org> writes:
| Quote: | John Hall a écrit :
In article <BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>,
Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> writes:
The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other
old
word as 'devise'?
"Devise" is a verb. The corresponding noun is "device". However
none of
its possible meanings corresponds to "motto".
As far as I can gather, "device" is "emblème" in French, and "motto" is
"devise". Is "emblem" a synonym to "device" ?
|
For one of the meanings of "device", yes. As Molly has said: "A device,
in olden days, referred to the design painted on a knight's shield or
banner, for the purpose of identification. It did not include words..."
And one of the meanings of "emblem" is: "A heraldic device or symbolic
object as a distinctive badge."
--
John Hall
"Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes."
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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John of Aix a écrit :
| Quote: | Didier Pelleton wrote:
Pas vraiment, hélas. Quelques fondus de la moto se nomment eux-mêmes
« bikers ». Johnny Hallyday, par exemple.
Not really, alas. Some enthusiasts of motorbike in France named
themselves 'bikers'. Johnny Hallyday, for instance.
En effet,oui, j'ai oublié celui-là, pourtant je l'utilise moi-même à
l'occasion.
or:
indeed, I had forgottent that one despite using it myself occasionally
(en 'français').
'Motards' is more common though.
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To me "bikers" in French seems to be restricted to those
older men riding huge and loud motorbikes at low speed.
"motard" is the common word for the rest of the motorbike
riders. |
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Isabelle Hamey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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Paul Burke a écrit :
| Quote: | Isabelle Hamey wrote:
John of Aix a écrit :
'Motards' is more common though.
"motard" is the common word for the rest of the motorbike riders.
Convergent divergences in the thread! Whose motto was 'Moult me tarde',
parodied as 'moutarde' meaning 'burn everything'?
|
Philippe le Hardi ?
:-) |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:41 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:46:12 +0100, John Hall
<nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <BEB983C3.6C39%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>,
Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> writes:
The Italian, Latin, origin of "motto" is strange. Had you an other old
word as 'devise'?
"Devise" is a verb. The corresponding noun is "device". However none of
its possible meanings corresponds to "motto".
|
I don't know, though.
The shades of night were falling fast,
As through an Alpine village passed
A youth, who bore, ‘mid snow and ice,
A banner with the strange device,
Excelsior!
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/longfellow/excelsior.html
The youth certainly goes on to use it as his "maxim adopted as a rule
of conduct" (COD) - some might say to excess. I suppose Longfellow
could have used motto and rhymed it with grotto or blotto but the poem
might have lost a certain je ne sais quoi.
--
Phil C. |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:43 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:25:21 +0100, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | A little piss beats a big fart?
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Is that from a version of "stone scissors and paper"?
--
Phil C. |
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