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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:38 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Didier Pelleton wrote:
| Quote: | Didier Pelleton should have written:
[May be!]
It should have been the motto of the "Académie française". Especially
concerning the navy!
Is 'Motto' too familiar word for 'devise'?
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It depends on the context. Also "slogan" - a bit more colloquial.
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air force'.
Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit
an armey un a flot". )
--
John Briggs
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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John Briggs écrivit :
| Quote: | The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air force'.
Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit
an armey un a flot". )
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Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:49 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 12:08:32 +0100, Matthew Huntbach
<mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | He replied that actually his experience with French was just the
same as mine - he had spent many years at school learning it, but
now he was in France could barely speak or understand a word of it.
His reason for this was the same as mine - he had learnt French at
school, but for many years after that had never been in a situation
where he needed it, so he had not developed any skills in it. With
English, however, throughout his professional career he had had to
make regular use of it, and therefore by now it came as second
nature to him.
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In Northern Spain recently I spent quite a bit of time with my
grandaughter's family, including a great-uncle who's Spanish but has
lived in France all his adult life. I hadn't even known he was going
to be there but I found my schoolboy French was _vastly_ better than I
expected - ungrammatical but fluent. He was surprised that I'd only
done French at school ("C" grade at O-level, ho hum) and hardly spoken
it since. At times I was listening to myself in disbelief - how on
earth was I understanding everything that he said to me and responding
with relative ease?
The key to this was probably partly that French was his second
language but equally my sheer blind terror at having to try to
communicate in Spanish. To speak French became a blessed relief rather
than a hurdle - it unlocked parts of my brain that I didn't even know
were there. To compensate, I became completely incapable of speaking
any Spanish at all. Weird.
| Quote: | I know speakers of English as a second language tend to find
my English particularly hard to follow compared to the English of
other people also using English as a second language.
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Mrs C. teaches English and students tell her that they find her much
easier to follow than some other native speakers. I'm not sure why. It
may be because she's had to communicate to monoglots in German and
Spanish in the past and knows what it's like to be a beginner.
--
Phil C.
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:49 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 13:48:57 +0200, Didier Pelleton
<didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air force'.
Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit
an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html
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I assume the Hungarian navy is on the smallish side but I think we
know what he was getting at.
--
Phil C. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 24 May 2005 13:48:57 +0200, Didier Pelleton
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air
force'. Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh
iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
I assume the Hungarian navy is on the smallish side but I think we
know what he was getting at.
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Switzerland has a navy - but it spends its time on the lakes. When the
Royal Navy made a goodwill visit to Switzerland (a minesweeper sailed up the
Rhine to Basel), the Swiss government thought it was a hoax and weren't
there to greet them!
--
John Briggs |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Didier Pelleton wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs écrivit :
The real mystery is why Weinreich (in 1945) didn't mention 'air
force'. Perhaps there was no term for it in Yiddish? ("A shprakh iz
a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot". )
Perhaps he thought of the past. It was a metaphor.
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I wouldn't have said that it was a metaphor.
--
John Briggs |
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:41 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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John Briggs écrivit :
| Quote: | I wouldn't have said that it was a metaphor.
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As you like. Anyway I prefer this citation of David Hume: "Laissez les
Français tirer vanité de l'expansion actuelle de leur langue. Nos
établissements d'Amérique, solides et en pleine croissance, promettent à la
langue anglaise une stabilité et une durée supérieure."
You'll understand that I don't dare to translate this nice sentence in
its original language. Excuse my french. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Didier Pelleton wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs écrivit :
I wouldn't have said that it was a metaphor.
As you like. Anyway I prefer this citation of David Hume: "Laissez les
Français tirer vanité de l'expansion actuelle de leur langue. Nos
établissements d'Amérique, solides et en pleine croissance,
promettent à la langue anglaise une stabilité et une durée
supérieure."
You'll understand that I don't dare to translate this nice sentence in
its original language. Excuse my french.
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"Let the French triumph in the present diffusion of their tongue. Our solid
and increasing establishments in America, where we need less dread the
inundation of barbarians, promise a superior stability and duration to the
English language." He was criticising Gibbon for publishing in French 
--
John Briggs |
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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John Briggs écrivit :
| Quote: | "Let the French triumph in the present diffusion of their tongue. Our solid
and increasing establishments in America, where we need less dread the
inundation of barbarians, promise a superior stability and duration to the
English language." He was criticising Gibbon for publishing in French
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Thanks a lot. I appreciate your big smile. I did not know context. I had
extracted this citation in a book of Claude Hagège. Besides, in his
citation, he had not made allusion to the 'barbarians'. Censored. |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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At 13:49:31 on Tue, 24 May 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net>
wrote in <3e8691dfrls79f9g3nculi5kfo5fprga2s@4ax.com>:
| Quote: | Mrs C. teaches English and students tell her that they find her much
easier to follow than some other native speakers. I'm not sure why. It
may be because she's had to communicate to monoglots in German and
Spanish in the past and knows what it's like to be a beginner.
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I think that's the crux of it. In twinning situations, I've been
required at no notice to translate official speeches from English into
French[1], and it leaves me floundering when the English-speaker uses
idioms and I don't know the equivalent French idiom. The more other
languages one speaks, the easier one finds it to speak one's native
language in an easy version which is (a) reasonably understandable to
those who speak it as a second language and (b) reasonably easy for an
only-semi-fluent amateur translator to translate.
At one point, the speaker said that while our twin town of Blois was
reputed to speak the purest French in France, our town of Lewes was very
capable of speaking pure Anglo-Saxon when it chose. I had no idea how
to translate that while getting across the point of the joke. So I said
in French "He has told a joke, but it wasn't funny enough to be worth
translating." The French all roared with laughter, and the speaker was
delighted.
[1] And during one seemingly never-ending weekend when the town councils
of both our French and German twin towns were our guests, I was
responsible for speaking English, French, German or Easy English,
depending on whom I was translating to and for. I don't think I've ever
been so totally exhausted as I was when that weekend finished.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 12:04 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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At 12:34:28 on Tue, 24 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
<didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
<BEB8CFD4.6B83%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
(firstly)
| Quote: | Is 'Motto' a too familiar word for 'devise'?
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(and secondly)
| Quote: | Is 'Motto' too familiar word for 'devise'?
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Actually, it's one of those odd situations where the right wording turns
out to be:
Is 'Motto' too familiar a word for 'devise'?
:-)
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 12:34:28 on Tue, 24 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
BEB8CFD4.6B83%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
(firstly)
Is 'Motto' a too familiar word for 'devise'?
(and secondly)
Is 'Motto' too familiar word for 'devise'?
Actually, it's one of those odd situations where the right wording
turns out to be:
Is 'Motto' too familiar a word for 'devise'?
:-)
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Possibly - but I think he meant "informal", rather than "familiar".
--
John Briggs |
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 12:46 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Molly Mockford écrivit :
| Quote: | Actually, it's one of those odd situations where the right wording turns out
to be:
Is 'Motto' too familiar a word for 'devise'?
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Thanks a lot to have corrected my mistake. I'll try to remember it. In
fact, I do not speak English, or a little, and I must use a machine. So,
excuse me if my syntax is sometimes schizophrenic.
Here is the culprit:
http://translation.paralink.com/translation.asp |
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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John Briggs écrivit :
| Quote: | Possibly - but I think he meant "informal", rather than "familiar".
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Yes, may be I would have said 'popular' or 'informal' ; 'familiar'
looks like a 'faux-ami'.
Is « Honni soit qui mal y pense » a motto, a slogan, a watchword, in
standard English ? According to you and Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary,
it would seem that it is a slogan, a word which we stole you and which we
use in publicity. An other 'faux-ami'. |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:16 am
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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At 20:46:53 on Tue, 24 May 2005, Didier Pelleton
<didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote in
<BEB9433D.6BFA%didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr>:
| Quote: | Thanks a lot to have corrected my mistake. I'll try to remember it. In
fact, I do not speak English, or a little, and I must use a machine. So,
excuse me if my syntax is sometimes schizophrenic.
Here is the culprit:
http://translation.paralink.com/translation.asp
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Merci pour ce lien - c'est un assez bon système de traduction! Bien
mieux que Babelfish.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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