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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:28:43 +0100, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
I don't know about Cyril (which is actually Greek in origin) but
fashions in names seem to have swung round. Alfred, Albert, Fred etc
were the names of old men in cloth caps when I was young - now they
seem to have become trendy again. There's long been a fad in Britain
for giving foreign names (or tortured versions thereof) to girls - I
wonder how some of them sound in their countries of origin.
|
I was told of a baby boy (now a man) whose parents sought naming inspiration
from a list of boys names. They found one that caught their fancy. It was a
name that they had never heard spoken (or so they thought). They pronounced
it in accordance with the spelling (or so they thought).
The boy was named "Yvon" pronounced "Why Von".
(This was somewhere in the UK.)
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Peter Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: | I was told of a baby boy (now a man) whose parents sought naming inspiration
from a list of boys names. They found one that caught their fancy. It was a
name that they had never heard spoken (or so they thought). They pronounced
it in accordance with the spelling (or so they thought).
The boy was named "Yvon" pronounced "Why Von".
(This was somewhere in the UK.)
|
Maybe they were influenced by 'Wipers' (Ypres). Parley voo ma sherry,
alley couchy? Napoo couchy? San fairy ann.
Paul Burke |
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Marion Gevers
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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Le Mon, 23 May 2005 13:00:48 +0100, Peter Duncanson a écrit :
| Quote: |
The following are used in modern English - but are they contemporary French
words?
"Collage"
"Virement" (a regulated transfer or re-allocation of money from one account
to another, esp. public funds)
They both are used in modern French. I didn't know the English "film |
noir" until a couple of days ago, when I read it in an essay my son
wrote for school. Funny how the English language doesn't bother
translating such a simple expression into "black film". I get the
feeling that it was actually first used in American English (rather
than in French, I mean).
Marion
--
Marion Gevers,
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
marion@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | fields.
In general, using identifiably French terms in native English is
considered sophisticated as long as it's done sparingly. But those who
overdo it are inclined to be seen as pretentious.
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Pretentious? Moi?
--
John Briggs |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:11 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 13:09:33 +0100, Peter Duncanson
<mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:28:43 +0100, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net
wrote:
I don't know about Cyril (which is actually Greek in origin) but
fashions in names seem to have swung round. Alfred, Albert, Fred etc
were the names of old men in cloth caps when I was young - now they
seem to have become trendy again. There's long been a fad in Britain
for giving foreign names (or tortured versions thereof) to girls - I
wonder how some of them sound in their countries of origin.
I was told of a baby boy (now a man) whose parents sought naming inspiration
from a list of boys names. They found one that caught their fancy. It was a
name that they had never heard spoken (or so they thought). They pronounced
it in accordance with the spelling (or so they thought).
The boy was named "Yvon" pronounced "Why Von".
(This was somewhere in the UK.)
|
Did he have red hair? If so, perhaps he reminded his parents of a
Vauxhall Wyvern. They were famous for rust.
--
Phil C. |
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Pierre Hallet
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Nick Wagg:
| Quote: | How often do you speak Flemish at work?
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For that matter, I speak Dutch more often than English.
| Quote: | I am British but lived in Eindhoven for many years.
My wife and I learned to speak Dutch quite fluently,
although we spoke English at home, to each other.
When visitors came, we spoke whichever language was
most natural to the situation.
|
Both the Flemish and the Dutch speak Dutch, but about
the same way as both Britons and Americans speak English.
For exemple, "last year" would be "vorig jaar" in Dutch
Dutch and "verleden jaar" in Flemish Dutch. And the
pronunciation is different. The Flemish W is pronounced
more or less like the English W, while the Dutch pronounce
W with their upper teeth touching their lower lip.
Sometimes, Flemish tell me that they have trouble
understanding Dutch colleagues. English has this advantage
that it is a foreign language to all, so that it is spoken
more slowly, which helps understand it.
Pierre Hallet (Brussels) |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:22 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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On Sun, 22 May 2005 23:54:45 UTC, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
| Quote: | On Monday, in article
42910b53$1$847$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr
j.murphy@libertysurf.fr "John of Aix" wrote:
Its used in finance too I believe. It's a word that is missing in
English, another, in much the same area, is 'mise en scene.
Ah yes: "there are mice in the river".
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Haha. You must have read "Sky My Husband!" (Ciel mon mari!)
by M. "Wolf".
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 11:01:29 UTC, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | In general, using identifiably French terms in native English is
considered sophisticated as long as it's done sparingly. But those who
overdo it are inclined to be seen as pretentious. Terms which have
become naturalised are fine - meringue, omelette etc. There are a very
few French words which have been naturalised but keep their gender -
e.g. blond/e, fiance/e.
(I haven't included accents above as these evidently cause problems
for some readers)
|
(And speakers!)
The diacriticals, I presume. And the accents are important, too! <g>
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Erick Andrews
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:39 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
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On Mon, 23 May 2005 13:15:32 UTC, "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Phil C. wrote:
fields.
In general, using identifiably French terms in native English is
considered sophisticated as long as it's done sparingly. But those who
overdo it are inclined to be seen as pretentious.
Pretentious? Moi?
|
Whenever I've ordered black coffee in Paris I've always told garçon "toot sweet"!
Non?
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:30 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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"Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3fek06F7f57oU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Nick Wagg:
How often do you speak Flemish at work?
For that matter, I speak Dutch more often than English.
I am British but lived in Eindhoven for many years.
My wife and I learned to speak Dutch quite fluently,
although we spoke English at home, to each other.
When visitors came, we spoke whichever language was
most natural to the situation.
Both the Flemish and the Dutch speak Dutch, but about
the same way as both Britons and Americans speak English.
|
My former Belgian colleagues insisted that they spoke Vlaams.
They also insisted that they spoke a purer form of the language
because they used "winkelwieg" instead of "helicopter".
Mind you, they all used "transistor", "computer" and lots of
other imported words.
| Quote: | For exemple, "last year" would be "vorig jaar" in Dutch
Dutch and "verleden jaar" in Flemish Dutch. And the
pronunciation is different. The Flemish W is pronounced
more or less like the English W, while the Dutch pronounce
W with their upper teeth touching their lower lip.
|
And the Flemish "G" is more of an "H" than a Scottish "CH".
| Quote: | Sometimes, Flemish tell me that they have trouble
understanding Dutch colleagues. English has this advantage
that it is a foreign language to all, so that it is spoken
more slowly, which helps understand it.
|
Even if both the Dutch and the Belgians mispronounce
"tram" and "jam", and I gave up trying to get people to say
my surname correctly.
;-) |
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eXo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:25 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Nick Wagg schreef:
| Quote: | "Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3fek06F7f57oU1@individual.net...
Nick Wagg:
How often do you speak Flemish at work?
For that matter, I speak Dutch more often than English.
I am British but lived in Eindhoven for many years.
My wife and I learned to speak Dutch quite fluently,
although we spoke English at home, to each other.
When visitors came, we spoke whichever language was
most natural to the situation.
Both the Flemish and the Dutch speak Dutch, but about
the same way as both Britons and Americans speak English.
My former Belgian colleagues insisted that they spoke Vlaams.
They also insisted that they spoke a purer form of the language
because they used "winkelwieg" instead of "helicopter".
|
(First, let me just say that I'm not a linguist, nor a native speaker
of English. On top of that, I'm 22 and just stumbled in here after
doing a Google for all things Belgian (I like to keep informed about
the latest misinformed stereotypes doing the rounds))
Everyone I (a Fleming) know uses "helikopter", "winkelwieg" sounds more
like a South-African concoction. Seriously, I've never heard it. Must
be an extremely local (or perhaps "Flemish elitist lingo", if there is
such a thing) thing. Mind you, there is a huge difference in
pronounciation and wording in Flanders itself, let alone the Low
Countries as a whole.
Anyway.. Dutch, if used correctly, is a collection of languages of the
Low Countries. Only in English is Dutch synonymous with "language of
the Modern Netherlands". Dutch (Diets) consists of Nederlands, Flemish,
Limburgs, Hollands, Brabants, Antwerps, Gronings, ... Modern Dutch (=
Nederlands - the language both Flemings (aka Southern-Netherlanders)
and Netherlanders speak) is mainly the result of variants spoken in the
3 historical/dominant regions: (in order of historical appearance)
Countship of Flanders, Duchy of Brabant and Countship of Holland.
| Quote: | Mind you, they all used "transistor", "computer" and lots of
other imported words.
|
Of course.
| Quote: |
For exemple, "last year" would be "vorig jaar" in Dutch
Dutch and "verleden jaar" in Flemish Dutch. And the
|
Not really, both would be correct in either case. Depends on what
province you're in, not what country.
| Quote: | pronunciation is different. The Flemish W is pronounced
more or less like the English W, while the Dutch pronounce
W with their upper teeth touching their lower lip.
And the Flemish "G" is more of an "H" than a Scottish "CH".
|
Only people from the provinces of West- and East-Flanders pronounce
their G as an H, and an H as a G (as in: Bruhhe instead of Brugge, Hent
insteand of Gent). None of the other provinces do that. We wouldn't
know how.
| Quote: |
Sometimes, Flemish tell me that they have trouble
understanding Dutch colleagues. English has this advantage
that it is a foreign language to all, so that it is spoken
more slowly, which helps understand it.
Even if both the Dutch and the Belgians mispronounce
"tram" and "jam", and I gave up trying to get people to say
my surname correctly.
;-) |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:56 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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eXo wrote:
| Quote: | Nick Wagg schreef:
"Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3fek06F7f57oU1@individual.net...
Nick Wagg:
How often do you speak Flemish at work?
For that matter, I speak Dutch more often than English.
I am British but lived in Eindhoven for many years.
My wife and I learned to speak Dutch quite fluently,
although we spoke English at home, to each other.
When visitors came, we spoke whichever language was
most natural to the situation.
Both the Flemish and the Dutch speak Dutch, but about
the same way as both Britons and Americans speak English.
My former Belgian colleagues insisted that they spoke Vlaams.
They also insisted that they spoke a purer form of the language
because they used "winkelwieg" instead of "helicopter".
(First, let me just say that I'm not a linguist, nor a native speaker
of English. On top of that, I'm 22 and just stumbled in here after
doing a Google for all things Belgian (I like to keep informed about
the latest misinformed stereotypes doing the rounds))
Everyone I (a Fleming) know uses "helikopter", "winkelwieg" sounds
more like a South-African concoction. Seriously, I've never heard it.
Must be an extremely local (or perhaps "Flemish elitist lingo", if
there is such a thing) thing. Mind you, there is a huge difference in
pronounciation and wording in Flanders itself, let alone the Low
Countries as a whole.
Anyway.. Dutch, if used correctly, is a collection of languages of the
Low Countries. Only in English is Dutch synonymous with "language of
the Modern Netherlands". Dutch (Diets) consists of Nederlands,
Flemish, Limburgs, Hollands, Brabants, Antwerps, Gronings, ... Modern
Dutch (= Nederlands - the language both Flemings (aka
Southern-Netherlanders) and Netherlanders speak) is mainly the result
of variants spoken in the 3 historical/dominant regions: (in order of
historical appearance) Countship of Flanders, Duchy of Brabant and
Countship of Holland.
|
Perhaps I should remind you of the dictum of the linguist Max Weinreich: "A
language is a dialect with an army and a navy."
--
John Briggs |
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:25 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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John Briggs écrivit :
| Quote: | Perhaps I should remind you of the dictum of the linguist Max Weinreich: "A
language is a dialect with an army and a navy."
|
It should have been the motto of "Académie française". Especially
concerning the navy!
'Motto' isn't a too familiar word for 'devise'? |
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Didier Pelleton
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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Didier Pelleton should have written:
[May be!]
It should have been the motto of the "Académie française". Especially
concerning the navy!
Is 'Motto' too familiar word for 'devise'? |
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Matthew Huntbach
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:08 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
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On Fri, 20 May 2005, Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 19:05:53 on Fri, 20 May 2005, Sas <schorschi100@hotmail.com> wrote in
d6l5df$915$1@news.uni-kl.de>:
And a final thought (I hope I will not provoke too much), but since
english has become a lingua franca, most of the english speaking people
don't have to bother to learn any foreign language.
This is regrettably more and more often the case these days. When I was
at school, we started to learn French at the age of 7, and German some
years later. I don't think that happens now.
|
I was at an international conference in Paris a few years ago, and
I got into a conversation with a Swede about French - the conversation
was in English, and the Swede's English was as good as mine. I
expressed my regret to him that despite my many years learning
French - I too started it at the age of 7, and continued to O-level
at the age of 15 - now I was in France my level of ability of the
language was abysmal, I could hardly follow any conversation, and
could just about pick up the gist of a newspaper article if I tried
hard (I was always better at reading/writing it than comprehending/speaking
it). I told him I envied his easy ability to pick up and use other
languages, as witness by the excellent English he was using with me.
He replied that actually his experience with French was just the
same as mine - he had spent many years at school learning it, but
now he was in France could barely speak or understand a word of it.
His reason for this was the same as mine - he had learnt French at
school, but for many years after that had never been in a situation
where he needed it, so he had not developed any skills in it. With
English, however, throughout his professional career he had had to
make regular use of it, and therefore by now it came as second
nature to him.
I don't think the English, at least not educated English people, have
any particular antipathy towards French. So to speak of it as a "war"
as if the English-speakers are as intent on wiping out French as the
French-speakers are on defending the use of their language is wrong.
The situation just happens to have developed that whereas many
years ago, French was the default language that people across the
world used when they didn't have a common first language, now English
fits that role. I rather feel that if I were a native French speaker,
I would resent that having happened. But as a native English speaker,
I only feel embarrasment that having never had the need to learn
another language to fluency, I haven't done that and I am a poor old
monoglot who in any situation expects others to speak his language.
I did once hear a conversation between someone who was a native
English speaker but fluent in French, and someone who was a native
Italian speaker, but more confident in French as a second language
than English. As it happened, I found this conversation much easier
to follow than I ever had conversations between native French speakers.
Maybe it's easier to pick up a language if the situations you find
yourself using it in are with fellow speakers of it as a second
language. I know speakers of English as a second language tend to find
my English particularly hard to follow compared to the English of
other people also using English as a second language.
Matthew Huntbach |
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