| Author |
Message |
John of Aix
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
Erick Andrews wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:47:06 UTC, "John of Aix"
j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
Erick Andrews wrote:
My sweetie and I go to Canada once in a while. In Québec
they will say 'une bicyclette au gas', when in France we're more
apt to hear 'un moto-bike'!
I've never heard that. Usually one says 'une moto', the short form of
'motocyclette'.
It's possible I suffer from CRS. However, it was circa 1982 -- yet I
AM sure it was 'un parisien' at a restaurant in Annecy who made this
comparison
in a friendly discussion at the table next to my wife and me. Like
us, I think he only drove a car.
|
He was probably trying to show off his knowledge of English or his
capacity to make anglicisms, the French don't have 'bike' anywhere in
slang, it would come out as 'bique' which is not the same thing at all.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Erick Andrews
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Sat, 21 May 2005 22:27:34 UTC, "John of Aix" <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | Erick Andrews wrote:
On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:47:06 UTC, "John of Aix"
j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
Erick Andrews wrote:
My sweetie and I go to Canada once in a while. In Québec
they will say 'une bicyclette au gas', when in France we're more
apt to hear 'un moto-bike'!
I've never heard that. Usually one says 'une moto', the short form of
'motocyclette'.
It's possible I suffer from CRS. However, it was circa 1982 -- yet I
AM sure it was 'un parisien' at a restaurant in Annecy who made this
comparison
in a friendly discussion at the table next to my wife and me. Like
us, I think he only drove a car.
He was probably trying to show off his knowledge of English or his
capacity to make anglicisms, the French don't have 'bike' anywhere in
slang, it would come out as 'bique' which is not the same thing at all.
|
Darn! I think you are correct.
My "Robert I" that I paid dearly for years ago does not list anything
close to "bike". "Bique" seems to be related to an old goat.
I just looked them up. Oh, well.
I still love the French language, yet I think culturally we tend to sop up
foreign words (OED, for sure) faster than french academics try to exclude
them.
Come to mind, "jods" is a nice, simple horsey word, yet it is in my "Robert".
Actually, "jodhpurs" is: 'mot hindi (XIX par l'angl.) Pantalon de cheval,
serrant la jambe du genou au pied, et évitant le port de la botte). This
should not be confused with a 'wellie', though.
C'est la vie.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Didier Pelleton
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
John of Aix écrivit :
| Quote: | He was probably trying to show off his knowledge of English or his capacity to
make anglicisms, the French don't have 'bike' anywhere in slang,
|
Pas vraiment, hélas. Quelques fondus de la moto se nomment eux-mêmes
« bikers ». Johnny Hallyday, par exemple.
Not really, alas. Some enthusiasts of motorbike in France named
themselves 'bikers'. Johnny Hallyday, for instance.
| Quote: | it would come out as 'bique' which is not the same thing at all.
|
Non, plutôt comme « like » que nous connaissons, mais peu de Français
savent prononcer l'anglais. C'est si difficile.
No, it's rather like « like » that we know, but only few french people
know how to pronunciate english. It's so difficult.
Sorry for my « litteral translation », word-by-word.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pierre Hallet
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
Didier Pelleton :
| Quote: | Not really, alas. Some enthusiasts of motorbike in
France named themselves 'bikers'. Johnny Hallyday,
for instance.
["bike" pronounced by a Frenchman] would come out
as 'bique' which is not the same thing at all.
No, it's rather like « like » that we know, but only
few french people know how to pronunciate english.
It's so difficult.
Sorry for my « litteral translation », word-by-word.
|
Some English words are pronounced correctly in France,
e.g. "mail", but they might have a different meaning:
- the French for "mail" (snail mail) is "courrier"
- the English "email" was used in French, but often
shortened to just "mail" (and why not? there was
no risk of confusion with the snail mail, which
is "courrier")
While we are at it: when reading an English text,
a Frenchman might fail to understand "double entendre",
although these are French words, because the phrase
doesn't exist in current French; and he might identify
"connoisseur", but frown at the spelling (which in
French is "connaisseur" since the 19th century).
--
Pierre Hallet (Brussels) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Didier Pelleton
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 11:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
Pierre Hallet écrivit :
| Quote: | Some English words are pronounced correctly in France,
e.g. "mail", but they might have a different meaning:
- the French for "mail" (snail mail) is "courrier"
- the English "email" was used in French, but often
shortened to just "mail" (and why not? there was
no risk of confusion with the snail mail, which
is "courrier")
|
We have 'courriel' for 'e-mail' too. Perhaps I should write "we'll have".
| Quote: | While we are at it: when reading an English text, a Frenchman might fail to
understand "double entendre", although these are French words, because the
phrase doesn't exist in current French; and he might identify "connoisseur",
but frown at the spelling (which in French is "connaisseur" since the 19th
century).
|
I wonder how many English-speaking can understand these french
expressions "used in modern English" :
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/French/Vocabulary/French-International.html
How strange is this list ! I don't see 'rendez-vous' and 'force majeure'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Erick Andrews
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Sun, 22 May 2005 17:20:32 UTC, Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
[...]
Quite an interesting list. Only 10 - 20% did I reasonably know.
What was also missing and interesting to me is "doucement". I think it's
a contextual word, not easily translated into English, and could mean in
one word either "slowly, softly" or "lighten up!!". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Another one is "funicular". I think English just "ripped it off" because it
describes in one word what would describe "an enclosed escalator" or
"a counterbalanced ascending and decending cable car".
"Montage" is another that seems mostly relegated to the arts in English.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:54 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Monday, in article
<42910b53$1$847$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>
j.murphy@libertysurf.fr "John of Aix" wrote:
| Quote: | Its used in finance too I believe. It's a word that is missing in
English, another, in much the same area, is 'mise en scene.
|
Ah yes: "there are mice in the river".
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John of Aix
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 2:23 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
Didier Pelleton wrote:
| Quote: | John of Aix écrivit :
He was probably trying to show off his knowledge of English or his
capacity to make anglicisms, the French don't have 'bike' anywhere
in slang,
Pas vraiment, hélas. Quelques fondus de la moto se nomment eux-mêmes
« bikers ». Johnny Hallyday, par exemple.
Not really, alas. Some enthusiasts of motorbike in France named
themselves 'bikers'. Johnny Hallyday, for instance.
|
En effet,oui, j'ai oublié celui-là, pourtant je l'utilise moi-même à
l'occasion.
or:
indeed, I had forgottent that one despite using it myself occasionally
(en 'français').
'Motards' is more common though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John of Aix
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:46 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
Erick Andrews wrote:
| Quote: | What was also missing and interesting to me is "doucement". I think
it's
a contextual word, not easily translated into English, and could mean
in
one word either "slowly, softly" or "lighten up!!". Please correct
me if I'm wrong.
|
I'd say that's about it.
| Quote: | Another one is "funicular". I think English just "ripped it off"
because it describes in one word what would describe "an enclosed
escalator" or "a counterbalanced ascending and decending cable car".
|
Isn't this Italian the Latin originally?
| Quote: | "Montage" is another that seems mostly relegated to the arts in
English.
|
Its used in finance too I believe. It's a word that is missing in
English, another, in much the same area, is 'mise en scene. 'Directing'
is OK for theatre/film but not otherwise, the 'mise en scene' to hide
a murder for instance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Erick Andrews
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:09 am
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Sun, 22 May 2005 22:46:10 UTC, "John of Aix" <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | Erick Andrews wrote:
What was also missing and interesting to me is "doucement". I think
it's
a contextual word, not easily translated into English, and could mean
in
one word either "slowly, softly" or "lighten up!!". Please correct
me if I'm wrong.
I'd say that's about it.
Another one is "funicular". I think English just "ripped it off"
because it describes in one word what would describe "an enclosed
escalator" or "a counterbalanced ascending and decending cable car".
Isn't this Italian the Latin originally?
|
Good question. After all these years after experiencing one at l'Hôtel Frontenac
in Québec I looked it up in the resources I have on my shelf.
It does come from Latin. 'Robert' gives <funiculaire> (which is how I heard and
pronounce it): adj., (1725; du lat. _funiculus_ <<petite corde>> 1) Qui fonctionne
au moyen de cordes. _Chemin de fer, tramway funiculaire_, mis en mouvement
par un cable [...] 2) _Anat._ Qui a rapport à un cordon, notament au cordon
spermatique ou au segment d'une racine nerveuse au niveau de son passage
entre les vertèbres.
Further,
Without digging out the big OED, the Concise edition gives: funicular, 1) (of a railway
on a steep slope) operated by cable with ascending and decending cars counterbalanced.
2) relating to a rope or its tension.
The Concise OED also points to _funicle_ in Botany, and to _funiculus_ Anatomy, a bundle
of nerve fibres , especially forming one of the main tracts of white matter in the spinal
cord. [...] Origin C17; from L., dimin. of _funis_ 'rope'.
| Quote: | "Montage" is another that seems mostly relegated to the arts in
English.
Its used in finance too I believe. It's a word that is missing in
English, another, in much the same area, is 'mise en scene. 'Directing'
is OK for theatre/film but not otherwise, the 'mise en scene' to hide
a murder for instance.
|
Interesting. It seems to me that some of these 'technical' words of yesteryear
have not become as popular as newer ones, e.g., byte, modem, website.
They're in my new Concise OED, but with the exception of modem, my
Robert is now dated: 1984.
The financial reference of 'montage' is not in my Concise OED: 2004.
--
Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
"Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3f4d60F5us0dU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Good evening,
... Now I am a Belgian and
I am using a lot of English at work (when we have a meeting
with colleagues from Luxemburg and the Netherlands, guess
the working language?), so I am reluctant to take sides in
this "war".
|
How often do you speak Flemish at work?
I am British but lived in Eindhoven for many years. My wife and
I learned to speak Dutch quite fluently, although we spoke English
at home, to each other. When visitors came, we spoke whichever
language was most natural to the situation.
I sometimes felt that my language was under threat, not from those
who refused to speak it but from those who spoke a different flavour.
I mixed with people from all over the world, most of whom tortured
my mother tongue beyond belief. They didn't understand my idioms
or words like "fortnight", or thought that "Cyril" would be a nice name
for a new baby. Gagh! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:28 pm
Post subject: Re: English and French: peace, not war? |
|
|
On Mon, 23 May 2005 09:52:07 +0100, "Nick Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Pierre Hallet" <pierre.hallet@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3f4d60F5us0dU1@individual.net...
Good evening,
... Now I am a Belgian and
I am using a lot of English at work (when we have a meeting
with colleagues from Luxemburg and the Netherlands, guess
the working language?), so I am reluctant to take sides in
this "war".
How often do you speak Flemish at work?
I am British but lived in Eindhoven for many years. My wife and
I learned to speak Dutch quite fluently, although we spoke English
at home, to each other. When visitors came, we spoke whichever
language was most natural to the situation.
|
I've got a relative who's an academic in The Netherlands in a
scientific post-grad dept with students from all over the world. His
wife has learned to speak Dutch far better than he has because English
is the only language he uses at work.
| Quote: | I sometimes felt that my language was under threat, not from those
who refused to speak it but from those who spoke a different flavour.
I mixed with people from all over the world, most of whom tortured
my mother tongue beyond belief. They didn't understand my idioms
or words like "fortnight", or thought that "Cyril" would be a nice name
for a new baby. Gagh!
|
I don't know about Cyril (which is actually Greek in origin) but
fashions in names seem to have swung round. Alfred, Albert, Fred etc
were the names of old men in cloth caps when I was young - now they
seem to have become trendy again. There's long been a fad in Britain
for giving foreign names (or tortured versions thereof) to girls - I
wonder how some of them sound in their countries of origin.
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Mon, 23 May 2005 00:46:10 +0200, "John of Aix"
<j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | Another one is "funicular". I think English just "ripped it off"
because it describes in one word what would describe "an enclosed
escalator" or "a counterbalanced ascending and decending cable car".
Isn't this Italian the Latin originally?
|
(Anyone with Stuck Tune Syndrome stop reading NOW.)
All together now -
Some think the world is made for fun and frolic,
And so do I! And so do I!
Some think it well to be all melancholic,
To pine and sigh; to pine and sigh;
But I, I love to spend my time in singing,
Some joyous song, some joyous song,
To set the air with music bravely ringing
Is far from wrong! Is far from wrong!
Listen, listen, echoes sound afar!
Listen, listen, echoes sound afar!
Funiculi, funicula, funiculi, funicula!
Echoes sound afar, funiculi, funicula!
Ah me! 'tis strange that some should take to sighing,
And like it well! And like it well!
For me, I have not thought it worth the trying,
So cannot tell! So cannot tell!
With laugh, with dance and song the day soon passes
Full soon is gone, full soon is gone,
For mirth was made for joyous lads and lasses
To call their own! To call their own!
Listen, listen, hark the soft guitar!
Listen, listen, hark the soft guitar!
Funiculi, funicula, funiculi, funicula!
Hark the soft guitar, funiculi, funicula!
<Sigh> I did warn you.
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Sun, 22 May 2005 19:20:32 +0200, Didier Pelleton
<didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | Pierre Hallet écrivit :
Some English words are pronounced correctly in France,
e.g. "mail", but they might have a different meaning:
- the French for "mail" (snail mail) is "courrier"
- the English "email" was used in French, but often
shortened to just "mail" (and why not? there was
no risk of confusion with the snail mail, which
is "courrier")
We have 'courriel' for 'e-mail' too. Perhaps I should write "we'll have".
While we are at it: when reading an English text, a Frenchman might fail to
understand "double entendre", although these are French words, because the
phrase doesn't exist in current French; and he might identify "connoisseur",
but frown at the spelling (which in French is "connaisseur" since the 19th
century).
I wonder how many English-speaking can understand these french
expressions "used in modern English" :
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/French/Vocabulary/French-International.html
How strange is this list ! I don't see 'rendez-vous' and 'force majeure'.
|
I didn't see eminence grise (which is in COD) or grande horizontale
which gets 200+ English language hits. And there are any number of
French cookery terms in English. Some of the terms given aren't
difficult for anyone who speaks a modicum of French but I can't say
I've come across them in use. Perhaps they're used in specialised
fields.
In general, using identifiably French terms in native English is
considered sophisticated as long as it's done sparingly. But those who
overdo it are inclined to be seen as pretentious. Terms which have
become naturalised are fine - meringue, omelette etc. There are a very
few French words which have been naturalised but keep their gender -
e.g. blond/e, fiance/e.
(I haven't included accents above as these evidently cause problems
for some readers)
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Duncanson
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Une culture [was: Re: English and French: peace, not w |
|
|
On Sun, 22 May 2005 19:40:20 -0000, "Erick Andrews" <eandrews@bogusstar.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 22 May 2005 17:20:32 UTC, Didier Pelleton <didier.pelleton@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
[...]
I wonder how many English-speaking can understand these french
expressions "used in modern English" :
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/French/Vocabulary/French-International.html
How strange is this list ! I don't see 'rendez-vous' and 'force majeure'.
Quite an interesting list. Only 10 - 20% did I reasonably know.
What was also missing and interesting to me is "doucement". I think it's
a contextual word, not easily translated into English, and could mean in
one word either "slowly, softly" or "lighten up!!". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Another one is "funicular". I think English just "ripped it off" because it
describes in one word what would describe "an enclosed escalator" or
"a counterbalanced ascending and decending cable car".
"Montage" is another that seems mostly relegated to the arts in English.
|
The following are used in modern English - but are they contemporary French
words?
"Collage"
"Virement" (a regulated transfer or re-allocation of money from one account
to another, esp. public funds)
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in