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WW
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:02 am
Post subject: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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I'm wondering why the word "billion" (and some other related words used
to call large numbers) has different meaning in American and British
English styles of usage.
1. The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000.
2. Chiefly British The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000,000.
As English is my second language, I've been wondering about 2 issues?
1. What if I don't know where the guy I'm talking to came from, and
talk about the billion with 9 zeros, while my listener is thinking of
the one with 12 zeroes?
2. Can I assume that people in the America Continent will adopt the
American style, while other European countries will adopt the British
one? Is there any rule on this?
WW |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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WW wrote:
| Quote: | I'm wondering why the word "billion" (and some other related words
used to call large numbers) has different meaning in American and
British English styles of usage.
1. The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000.
2. Chiefly British The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000,000.
As English is my second language, I've been wondering about 2 issues?
1. What if I don't know where the guy I'm talking to came from, and
talk about the billion with 9 zeros, while my listener is thinking of
the one with 12 zeroes?
2. Can I assume that people in the America Continent will adopt the
American style, while other European countries will adopt the British
one? Is there any rule on this?
WW
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The "billion = one thousand million" usage is common now, even in the
UK. Safer to assume everyone is using this version. If someone speaks to
you of billions AND it matters which version they mean, check with them
("You mean 9 noughts, yes?").
If someone has written it and not made it clear and you can't check,
proceed with caution and common sense.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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WW wrote:
| Quote: | I'm wondering why the word "billion" (and some other related words
used to call large numbers) has different meaning in American and
British English styles of usage.
1. The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000.
2. Chiefly British The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000,000.
As English is my second language, I've been wondering about 2
issues?
1. What if I don't know where the guy I'm talking to came from,
and
talk about the billion with 9 zeros, while my listener is thinking
of
the one with 12 zeroes?
2. Can I assume that people in the America Continent will adopt
the
American style, while other European countries will adopt the
British
one? Is there any rule on this?
|
In my experience, the British billion is pretty nearly dead. Most
people seem to use the American one; and I think UK official papers
always use the expression "thousand million" to be on the safe side.
It's been discussed a few times in AUE, of course: may even be in the
FAQ.
--
Mike. |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: |
snip
In my experience, the British billion is pretty nearly dead. Most
people seem to use the American one; and I think UK official papers
always use the expression "thousand million" to be on the safe side.
It's been discussed a few times in AUE, of course: may even be in the
FAQ.
|
Wouldn't the use of "thousand million" for 10^9 imply that "billion"
still has some currency for 10^12? Do you ever see "million million"
used for the latter figure, so as to avoid any ambiguity arising from
saying either (Br.) "billion" or (N.Am.) "trillion"?
--
Odysseus |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 3:03 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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Odysseus wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
snip
In my experience, the British billion is pretty nearly dead. Most
people seem to use the American one; and I think UK official
papers
always use the expression "thousand million" to be on the safe
side.
It's been discussed a few times in AUE, of course: may even be in
the
FAQ.
Wouldn't the use of "thousand million" for 10^9 imply that
"billion"
still has some currency for 10^12?
|
No, I think it's just a precaution. To the best of my knowledge, the
British billion survives entirely, or almost entirely, in discussions
like this. The _Guardian_ style guide insists on the 10^9 billion,
and I have no reason to believe anybody who writes things differs. A
few older people may still sense an ambiguity: I'll ask my 84-y-o
mother.
| Quote: | Do you ever see "million million"
used for the latter figure, so as to avoid any ambiguity arising
from
saying either (Br.) "billion" or (N.Am.) "trillion"?
|
I don't really remember, but I think I do see "million million"
occasionally. Figures like that, if meant to be taken precisely,
probably only come up in specialist contexts where everybody knows
what's what. And in specialist contexts people generally seem to use
powers of ten anyhow. I doubt if I hear or read "trillion" once a
year.
--
Mike. |
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Guest
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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ceceliaarmstrong@yahoo.com wrote:
Why what? Are you talking to me? (You really must quote some text: go
through <show options>.)
--
Mike. |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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In alt.english.usage on Sat, 14 May 2005 20:40:13 GMT Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
snip
In my experience, the British billion is pretty nearly dead. Most
people seem to use the American one; and I think UK official papers
always use the expression "thousand million" to be on the safe side.
It's been discussed a few times in AUE, of course: may even be in the
FAQ.
Wouldn't the use of "thousand million" for 10^9 imply that "billion"
still has some currency for 10^12? Do you ever see "million million"
used for the latter figure, so as to avoid any ambiguity arising from
saying either (Br.) "billion" or (N.Am.) "trillion"?
|
Of course it has currency. If you're 95 years old, you think billion
is a million million. If I were British, I'd think the same thing,
at my age, 58. I don't like change.
But so what?
s/ meirman
--
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 22 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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In alt.english.usage on 14 May 2005 11:02:15 -0700 "WW"
<real_woody@yahoo.com> posted:
| Quote: | I'm wondering why the word "billion" (and some other related words used
to call large numbers) has different meaning in American and British
English styles of usage.
1. The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000.
2. Chiefly British The cardinal number equal to 1,000,000,000,000.
As English is my second language, I've been wondering about 2 issues?
1. What if I don't know where the guy I'm talking to came from, and
|
In a situation like this, you can say "thousand million". Some
foolish American may object because he isn't used to the phrase, and
others may ask, but its meaning is clear on both sides of the pond.
Now in this case it might not be necessary anymore to be this clear,
but my point is that one should look for phrasings in general that are
clear to all, even if one has to use a more words. In this case, only
one more word was necessary.
| Quote: | talk about the billion with 9 zeros, while my listener is thinking of
the one with 12 zeroes?
2. Can I assume that people in the America Continent will adopt the
American style, while other European countries will adopt the British
one? Is there any rule on this?
WW
|
s/ meirman
--
If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 22 years |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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In article news:<1116093735.685117.74770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Ww
wrote:
| Quote: | I'm wondering why the word "billion" (and some other related words used
to call large numbers) has different meaning in American and British
English styles of usage.
|
The word "billion" was apparently in use in English before the settling of
the Americas, but with some confusion as to the number it actually denoted.
The tendancy gradually became to regard the word as meaning 10^12 in
Britain but 10^9 in America.
More recently the American usage has become more familiar in other
countries, and confusion has arisen again. Nowadays /most/ English speakers
use it with the American meaning, but there is no way to be certain/
I regard the word "billion" as too dangerous to use. I never use it myself
(except to deliberately confuse Americans) and always query it when others
do.
Milliard, on the other hand, is completely unambiguous (unlike trilliard,
etc.) -- meaning 10^9 on both sides of the water -- and I make a point of
using it whenever the opportunity arises.
Note that it's not only in British and American English that this confusion
arises. The word "billion" (or some near equivalent) exists in many other
languages and some interpret it with one meaning, others with the other.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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In article news:<1116106874.475013.119560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
Interesting site, but what it says contradicts my experience.
IME /un bilione/ in Italian has always meant 10^12, and /un miliardo/ is
common (or was before the advent of the Euro, because the Lira was such a
small currency unit).
Conversely I have only heard the French /Billion/ used with the meaning of
10^9. Interestingly my wife's Harrap and my Cassel English-French
dictionaries appear to disagree (though it can be hard unravelling just
what the dictionaries are trying to tell one on this score), Cassel's
apparently supporting 10^12 and Harrap 10^9.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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Daniel James wrote:
| Quote: | In article
news:<1116106874.475013.119560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
See http://www.sizes.com/numbers/big_numName.htm
Interesting site, but what it says contradicts my experience.
IME /un bilione/ in Italian has always meant 10^12, and /un
miliardo/
is common (or was before the advent of the Euro, because the Lira
was
such a small currency unit).
Conversely I have only heard the French /Billion/ used with the
meaning of 10^9. Interestingly my wife's Harrap and my Cassel
English-French dictionaries appear to disagree (though it can be
hard
unravelling just what the dictionaries are trying to tell one on
this
score), Cassel's apparently supporting 10^12 and Harrap 10^9.
|
My Collins Robert says for Fr _billion_ simply "billion, trillion
(US)", which I think irresponsibly brief.
It has 465 + 551pp, and calls itself "Concise" _only_ on the
dust-wrapper, and not on the title pages. Trying to emulate the
Oxford dictionaries' confusingness?
--
Mike. |
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Lanarcam
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 7:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Daniel James wrote:
In article
news:<1116106874.475013.119560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
wrote:
See http://www.sizes.com/numbers/big_numName.htm
Interesting site, but what it says contradicts my experience.
IME /un bilione/ in Italian has always meant 10^12, and /un
miliardo/
is common (or was before the advent of the Euro, because the Lira
was
such a small currency unit).
Conversely I have only heard the French /Billion/ used with the
meaning of 10^9. Interestingly my wife's Harrap and my Cassel
English-French dictionaries appear to disagree (though it can be
hard
unravelling just what the dictionaries are trying to tell one on
this
score), Cassel's apparently supporting 10^12 and Harrap 10^9.
My Collins Robert says for Fr _billion_ simply "billion, trillion
(US)", which I think irresponsibly brief.
It has 465 + 551pp, and calls itself "Concise" _only_ on the
dust-wrapper, and not on the title pages. Trying to emulate the
Oxford dictionaries' confusingness?
|
in French there were originally slices of 6 figures,
but after the 17th century they were only 3 figures wide.
million 10E6, billion 10E12, trillion 10E18, quadrillion 1OE24
and then
million 10E6, billion 10E9, trillion 10E12, quadrillion 1OE15
(bi-li-on) s. m.
milliard = billion 10E9, in finance, at first.
Terme d'arithmétique. Dix fois cent millions ou mille millions,
un milliard, qui est plus particulièrement usité dans le
langage de la finance et dans le langage ordinaire.
Mot formé sur le modèle de million, avec bi pour bis, le degré
au-dessus du million. Ces formes, billion, trillion, etc. ont
été créées dans le XVIe siècle pour signifier des tranches de
six en six chiffres, les unités représentant, à partir de la
droite, les six premiers rangs de chiffres ; le million
représentant les chiffres du 7e rang au 12e ; le billion
représentant les chiffres du 13e rang au 18e, et ainsi de suite.
C'est pour cela qu'Est. de la Roche dit qu'un billion vaut mille
milliers de millions. Ce n'est qu'au milieu du XVIIe siècle qu'il
fut réglé que les tranches, au lieu d'être de six en six chiffres,
seraient de trois en trois chiffres ; ce qui revint à diviser par
1000 l'ancien billion, l'ancien trillion, etc. Ce mode de compter
ne fut admis que tard en Angleterre, puisque Locke, Essai sur
l'entendement humain, II, 16, reproche à ses compatriotes de ne
pouvoir compter les grands nombres qu'en redoublant le mot de
million.
dictionnaire Littré |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:42 am
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
The original question: I'm wondering why...
Cece |
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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Billion in the USA and the UK |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | I don't really remember, but I think I do see "million million"
occasionally. Figures like that, if meant to be taken precisely,
probably only come up in specialist contexts where everybody knows
what's what. And in specialist contexts people generally seem to use
powers of ten anyhow. I doubt if I hear or read "trillion" once a
year.
|
It does come up increasingly frequently in economic reports in the
media. Quantities such as the US GDP are now in the trillions (10^12).
"Billion", as someone pointed out in this thread, goes back a long way
in English. Surprisingly, it's one of the rhymes in GM Hopkins'
wonderful poem The Windhover (rhyming with the even older Norman word
"sillion" < Fr sillon = furrow).
Nigel
--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk |
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