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Richard Maurer
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:19 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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Dena Jo wrote:
What's a cryptic crossword?
Peter Duncanson answered:
There is a description at
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~vburton/cryptics/cryptics.htm
OK, I get the idea of the clue part now.
But what about the crossword part?
Why do the clues include the number of letters?
Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
If the answer is a 3 word phrase, how is the answer positioned?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
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Richard Maurer
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:22 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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Dena Jo wrote:
What's a cryptic crossword?
Peter Duncanson answered:
There is a description at
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~vburton/cryptics/cryptics.htm
Richard Maurer wrote:
OK, I get the idea of the clue part now.
But what about the crossword part?
Why do the clues include the number of letters?
Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
If the answer is a 3 word phrase, how is the answer positioned?
That should be "Or is it that they don't give".
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:42 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:22:57 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
<rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | OK, I get the idea of the clue part now.
But what about the crossword part?
Why do the clues include the number of letters?
Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
If the answer is a 3 word phrase, how is the answer positioned?
That should be "Or is it that they don't give".
|
They do give the position*. The letters indicate whether it's a
phrase or simply a word, probably in an attempt to be helpful
(remember that some of these may be 15 letters or longer). The clue
might read thus: "12 across: Something needed under the passage carpet
(4,4,4)". (This is an example - a favourite of mine - of another sort
of clue, where the whole phrase is a translation or alternative
version of the words of the clue but means something different.)
*Usually. Araucaria in the Saturday Guardian sometimes sets puzzles
in which one fits the answers where one can.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
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Dena Jo
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:47 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Mike Lyle posted thus:
| Quote: | From: "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk
Message-ID: <2qohjjF12f2stU1@uni-berlin.de
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
|
I see you're up and running!
Next lesson: Red posters.
--
Dena Jo
Email goes to denajo2 at the dot com variation of the Yahoo domain.
Have I confused you? Go here:
http://myweb.cableone.net/denajo/emailme.htm |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:22:57 GMT, "Richard Maurer" <rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Dena Jo wrote:
What's a cryptic crossword?
Peter Duncanson answered:
There is a description at
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~vburton/cryptics/cryptics.htm
Richard Maurer wrote:
OK, I get the idea of the clue part now.
But what about the crossword part?
Why do the clues include the number of letters?
Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
If the answer is a 3 word phrase, how is the answer positioned?
|
The starting position is given.
There is a grid with some squares white and some black.
The solutions go in the white squares.
Each white square which is the start of a word is numbered.
(Each word runs in an unbroken line either horizontally, left to right; or
vertically downwards.)
The starting position and direction are shown as for instance:
ACROSS
1 clue
6 clue
9 clue
....
DOWN
2 clue
3 clue
4 clue
5 clue
6 clue
....
In this example the grid is such that square 6 holds a letter that is the
start of two words - one across and one down.
The grid layout, overall dimensions, and the number and position of black
squares, varies. Some grids have space for long words and phrases, others
restrict the words to be short and medium length.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:56 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Richard Maurer wrote
It's part of the convention to indicate if the word is a single word
of, say, 8 letters or two words of 5 and 3 letters. I can understand
in word-substitution puzzles that the breaks aren't shown: it turns
the screw a bit and makes it a bit tougher to figure out.
In a cryptic clue, though, you're relying on analysing the clue, and
cutting solution free from any indication of word length seems a bit
too severe.
| Quote: | Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
|
I don't know what you mean by this: isn't the positioning always part
of of the puzzle in crosswords?
| Quote: | If the answer is a 3 word phrase, how is the answer positioned?
|
It depends. If the answer is, say, "Harvey Van Sickle" -- 15 letters -
- the word-length numbers would be "6,3,6". If that's all on one line
under "12 across", that's how the clue is numbered; if it's broken
into one 6-light and one 9-light answer at 12 across and 9 down, the
numbering of the clue will say so. (The clue at 12 across will be
numbered "12,9 down..."; the clue for 9 down will be "see 12 across".
The best way to understand the principles is to give it a try: take a
look at http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/games.cf
To get you started, here are the answers with an explanation for 5
across and 10 across:
------------------------
The answer to 5 is "gaffer" -- Foreman starting to recover after faux
pas (6).
"Foreman" is the definition (a "gaffer" is a job foreman); "starting
to recover" indicates the letter "r" -- the letter which starts the
word "recover"; that letter ("r") is positioned after "gaffe" -- a
"faux pas".)
------------------------
The answer to 10 across is "guerrilla" -- Lure a girl deceitfully to be
a partisan (9).
"Lure a girl" is an anagram; this is indicated by the clue's use of
"deceitfully"; "to be a partisan" is the definition of the solution
(guerrilla).
------------------------
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:56 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Paul Wolff wrote
| Quote: | In message <Xns956450D7BAF89whhvans@62.253.162.206>, Harvey Van
Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
(I always liked the clue which supposedly got past the crossword
editor of The Times in the late 1960s -- probably apochryphal:
"Listen closely for a sexual perversion (5,2,4,4)".)
Joe Orton.
|
It's a lovely clue, innit?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:58 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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In message <01c49a98$9375e4a0$40c4480c@default>, Richard Maurer
<rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com> writes
| Quote: | Dena Jo wrote:
What's a cryptic crossword?
Peter Duncanson answered:
There is a description at
http://www.home.gil.com.au/~vburton/cryptics/cryptics.htm
Richard Maurer wrote:
OK, I get the idea of the clue part now.
But what about the crossword part?
Why do the clues include the number of letters?
Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
If the answer is a 3 word phrase, how is the answer positioned?
That should be "Or is it that they don't give".
Almost always, the start point is given before the clue. They are |
usually listed as Across: 1, 5, 8 and so on (each numeral starting a new
line); and Down: 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on (likewise). Imagine a clue placed
after each numeral.
Occasionally, part of the puzzle is to place the solutions in the
correct positions in the grid, but there is usually some additional
indication provided, or deducible. The (London) Sunday Express used to
run what they called a Skeleton crossword with only four lights blacked
out; I don't recall if they gave any numbering at all (like a small '1'
in the top left corner of a light) to show where at least some clues
began; but it was accepted that the closed lights were distributed in
two-fold symmetry.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Paul Wolff wrote
| Quote: | In message <Xns9564A44371B28whhvans@62.253.162.203>, Harvey Van
Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
On 14 Sep 2004, graham wrote
"Harvey Van Sickle" <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95644D56FD0ACwhhvans@62.253.162.205...
On 13 Sep 2004, graham wrote
What's your favourite clue? I think "E" (13) must be one of the
cleverest. Graham
I always liked that one -- I first met it a while back, so I
won't spoil it for others by giving the answer.
For cleverness, I like "ofofofofofofofofofof (10)";
Frequently?
|
An excellent definition of the actual answer (which is
straightforward).
| Quote: | for a giggle, I like "Listen closely for a sexual perversion
(4,2,4,4)".
The first word is 5 letters.
|
You're absolutely right. Sorry.
| Quote: | For another favourite: Gegs (9,4). Again, not a two-parter in the
classic mould.
|
A certain type of food, usually eaten at breakfast. (The Guardian
convention for that one would, I think, require a question mark.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:08 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Wood Avens wrote
| Quote: | On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:22:57 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com> wrote:
Or is it that they give the starting position (57 across)
in the grid, so the positioning is part of the puzzle?
|
-snip-
| Quote: | That should be "Or is it that they don't give".
They do give the position*.
|
-snip-
| Quote: | *Araucaria in the Saturday Guardian sometimes sets
puzzles in which one fits the answers where one can.
|
I *adore* those: his alphabetical puzzles. For those who aren't
familiar with them, they border on obscenely clever:
Each clue starts with a letter of the alphabet.
Each letter is used only once or twice -- twice where the
grid demands an across and down answer starting from the
same light.
You solve the clues and fit them where they will go.
AND NOT ONLY THAT: THE CLUES ARE PAIRED AS RHYMING
COUPLETS. (That's just showing off, frankly...)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:10 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Harvey Van Sickle wrote
-snip-
| Quote: | I *adore* those: his alphabetical puzzles. For those who aren't
familiar with them, they border on obscenely clever:
Each clue starts with a letter of the alphabet.
|
Sorry: each *answer* starts with a letter of the alphabet.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Mike Barnes
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:20 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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In alt.usage.english, Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | For cleverness, I like "ofofofofofofofofofof (10)";
|
bsgragvzrf?
| Quote: | for a giggle, I
like "Listen closely for a sexual perversion (4,2,4,4)".
|
pbpx hc lbhe rnef? 
or did you mean 5,2,4,4?
My favourite bit of cleverness was an Araucaria Easter special, one of
those puzzles with no numbers. You had to work out not only the answers
but also where they would go, so as to intersect properly.
After a while it became clear that every intersection was a letter "A".
And then I noticed the title of the puzzle: "April the First".
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England |
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:24 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:08:00 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | AND NOT ONLY THAT: THE CLUES ARE PAIRED AS RHYMING
COUPLETS. (That's just showing off, frankly...)
|
It is, innit. Trouble is, it also makes it harder, as it sets up
quite spurious (usually) connections between the clues, which one
(well, I, at least) then deliberately has to make oneself ignore.
Eeeevil.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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On 14 Sep 2004, Wood Avens wrote
| Quote: | On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:08:00 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
AND NOT ONLY THAT: THE CLUES ARE PAIRED AS RHYMING
COUPLETS. (That's just showing off, frankly...)
It is, innit. Trouble is, it also makes it harder, as it sets up
quite spurious (usually) connections between the clues, which one
(well, I, at least) then deliberately has to make oneself ignore.
Eeeevil.
|
I'll be very sad when he's no longer here to set them. (He's 83 now:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,438558,00.html.)
As far as I know, none of the other setters have done anything
approaching that level of complexity.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:32 am
Post subject: Re: Daily free cryptic crosswords, RIP |
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In message <Xns9564DFD7B60D7whhvans@194.168.222.122>, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
| Quote: | On 14 Sep 2004, Paul Wolff wrote
For another favourite: Gegs (9,4). Again, not a two-parter in the
classic mould.
A certain type of food, usually eaten at breakfast. (The Guardian
convention for that one would, I think, require a question mark.)
Perhaps it had. Though it was a Times clue, from the 1930s, I think. I |
have tried those oldies and haven't mastered them. They were less
formally structured - like the SDC.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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