| Author |
Message |
paul
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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On 2 May 2005 12:21 Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
|
In the context of formal essays, more so with scientific ones, it's more
common to read: "It" may be seen | noted, ... "There" may be seen ...
also using nouns for "it" and "there" to avoid repetition.
Wouldn't mark down in a mock but would certainly underline and provide
alternatives for preferred usage to illustrate why "you" will detract
from the overall tenor of the paper.
--
paul (C) © 2005 is mine
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Sas
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:04 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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? "Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:q2pe71djqgpj863hepbn70f1cvmai3iht2@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Tue, 03 May 2005 01:54:20 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu
wrote:
On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk
wrote:
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken
language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained
the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have
to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always
thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane
Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more
dramatic effect. No? Just me then.
We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science
lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever
used in formal scientific writing.
|
In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER used,
"we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked by everyone,
and "one" together with passive voice are both used equally. Usually the
form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since passive
voice takes more space.
I cannot say to what extend these rules apply to everyday language, let
alone to highschool essays.
Cheers
Sas
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:14 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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Sas wrote:
| Quote: | ? "Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:q2pe71djqgpj863hepbn70f1cvmai3iht2@4ax.com...
On Tue, 03 May 2005 01:54:20 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu
wrote:
On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk
wrote:
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken
language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained
the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have
to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always
thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane
Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more
dramatic effect. No? Just me then.
We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science
lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever
used in formal scientific writing.
In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER used,
"we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked by everyone,
and "one" together with passive voice are both used equally. Usually the
form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since passive
voice takes more space.
Can you cite a source for your very precise and definitive statement of |
the "rules"?
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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Sas wrote:
| Quote: | In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER
used, "we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked
by everyone, and "one" together with passive voice are both used
equally. Usually the form "one" is prefered in journals that set a
length limit, since passive voice takes more space.
I cannot say to what extend these rules apply to everyday language,
let alone to highschool essays.
|
I think that the usage has changed a lot in my life-time. When I was
studying Physics & Chemistry at A-level, over 40 years ago, we were taught
to write all our lab reports in the passive voice. "The liquid was put in
the beaker....."
Nowadays I believe there is a difference between what is taught at school
level and what is practised elsewhere. Certainly the last time I worked in
a school, the accepted form at that level was a straightforward past-tense
narrative "We put the liquid in the beaker....."
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
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Sas
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 7:14 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
|
|
? "Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> ?????? ???
?????? news:3dq49mF6sn0lrU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Sas wrote:
? "Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:q2pe71djqgpj863hepbn70f1cvmai3iht2@4ax.com...
On Tue, 03 May 2005 01:54:20 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu
wrote:
On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk
wrote:
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some
advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken
language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained
the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have
to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always
thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane
Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more
dramatic effect. No? Just me then.
We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science
lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever
used in formal scientific writing.
In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER
used,
"we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked by
everyone,
and "one" together with passive voice are both used equally. Usually
the
form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since
passive
voice takes more space.
Can you cite a source for your very precise and definitive statement of
the "rules"?
|
Just take a look at any scientific paper from the American Physical Society,
or ask anyone who ever has refereed any.
I am not suggesting that this is the most correct english, but it is
definitely common practice when it comes to research papers.
| Quote: |
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 3:50 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
|
|
Sas wrote:
| Quote: | ? "Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> ?????? ???
?????? news:3dq49mF6sn0lrU1@individual.net...
Sas wrote:
? "Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:q2pe71djqgpj863hepbn70f1cvmai3iht2@4ax.com...
On Tue, 03 May 2005 01:54:20 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu
wrote:
On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk
wrote:
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some
advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken
language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained
the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have
to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always
thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane
Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more
dramatic effect. No? Just me then.
We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science
lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever
used in formal scientific writing.
In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER
used,
"we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked by
everyone,
and "one" together with passive voice are both used equally. Usually
the
form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since
passive
voice takes more space.
Can you cite a source for your very precise and definitive statement of
the "rules"?
Just take a look at any scientific paper from the American Physical Society,
or ask anyone who ever has refereed any.
I am not suggesting that this is the most correct english, but it is
definitely common practice when it comes to research papers.
Thank you for your reply. My memory from my brief period of studying |
science at university in the dim and distant past is that the preferred
impersonal structure was the passive and not "one". But perhaps styles
have changed. It doesn't seem to have penetrated any of teh style/usage
books that I've used over the years as a teacher of English as a foreign
language.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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| Back to top |
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Sas
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 2:19 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
|
|
? "Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> ?????? ???
?????? news:3e7fpiF1jh5pU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Sas wrote:
? "Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> ?????? ???
?????? news:3dq49mF6sn0lrU1@individual.net...
Sas wrote:
? "Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:q2pe71djqgpj863hepbn70f1cvmai3iht2@4ax.com...
On Tue, 03 May 2005 01:54:20 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu
wrote:
On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk
wrote:
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some
advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken
language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic
pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained
the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have
to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always
thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane
Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more
dramatic effect. No? Just me then.
We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science
lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever
used in formal scientific writing.
In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER
used,
"we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked by
everyone,
and "one" together with passive voice are both used equally. Usually
the
form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since
passive
voice takes more space.
Can you cite a source for your very precise and definitive statement of
the "rules"?
Just take a look at any scientific paper from the American Physical
Society,
or ask anyone who ever has refereed any.
I am not suggesting that this is the most correct english, but it is
definitely common practice when it comes to research papers.
Thank you for your reply. My memory from my brief period of studying
science at university in the dim and distant past is that the preferred
impersonal structure was the passive and not "one". But perhaps styles
have changed. It doesn't seem to have penetrated any of teh style/usage
books that I've used over the years as a teacher of English as a foreign
language.
|
Many journals (especially letters) offer a limited space for each article,
usually four pages. Authors usually try to accomodate as many data as
possible in these four pages, and believe me sometimes a couple of lines can
make the difference between getting an article published or not!!! I have to
admit, that those articles do not always provide the best linguistic
examples. I simply state what is common usage. Most authors are not native
speakers, and perhaps it is simply a tranfer from the german form "man", or
the french "on". English has become the international science language after
all. Nowadays even russian journals publish in english. Italian, and german
ones have been doing so for years, only french resist... In any case, it is
really very often to be read. When it comes to review articles, where space
is no issue, then the passive form appears more often I guess. I haven't
carried out any statistics however... And of course I repeat, that my
experience (being a physicist at a university) is connected to physical
sciences only, and certainly not linguistics or litterature.
Regards
Sas
| Quote: |
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Cymraes
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:05 pm
Post subject: |
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The passive is to be used .
Cymraes . |
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