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Gunter Kuhnle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 6:21 pm
Post subject: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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Hallo,
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Best wishes,
Gunter
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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Gunter Kuhnle wrote:
| Quote: | Hallo,
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some
advice I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see',
'you may notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate
'one can see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken
language (at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in
written language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
|
No. While as you say it is more correct than 'you' not many people use
it as it has certain snobbish connotations for many. There is also the
fact that when it is used, it is frequently used wrongly, Princess Anne
is particularly prone to saying "one fell of one's horse" when she means
"I fell off my horse". |
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Gunter Kuhnle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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* John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | No. While as you say it is more correct than 'you' not many people use
it as it has certain snobbish connotations for many.
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Even in a clearly formal context? In most scientific talks I've heard so
far, 'one' was used instead of 'you'; however, these were mainly older
people or foreigners (i.e. non native speakers).
| Quote: | There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used
wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of
one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse".
|
But this is a completely different situation, isn't it?
Best wishes,
Gunter
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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Gunter Kuhnle wrote:
| Quote: | * John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
No. While as you say it is more correct than 'you' not many people
use it as it has certain snobbish connotations for many.
Even in a clearly formal context? In most scientific talks I've heard
so far, 'one' was used instead of 'you'; however, these were mainly
older people or foreigners (i.e. non native speakers).
|
I would never have used it when I lived in Britain, which I did until
the age of 25, except for effect but having now lived in France for an
even longer time, where 'on' is frequent and used correctly most of the
time, I have adopted it in English too. Well 'one' anyway.
| Quote: |
There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used
wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of
one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse".
But this is a completely different situation, isn't it?
|
I meant it as one of the reasons why average English people avoid it,
they don't seem to be quite sure what it means or when to use it. I'm
doing my best to educate them  |
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Gunter Kuhnle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:12 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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* John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used
wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of
one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse".
But this is a completely different situation, isn't it?
I meant it as one of the reasons why average English people avoid it,
they don't seem to be quite sure what it means or when to use it. I'm
doing my best to educate them
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So do you think I should point this out to my students (after all, they
will have to write essays for next few years), or do you think I should
rather keep it to myself (they are the native speakers; my experience
with the English language is rather limited).
Best wishes,
Gunter |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:57 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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Gunter Kuhnle wrote:
| Quote: | * John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used
wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of
one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse".
But this is a completely different situation, isn't it?
I meant it as one of the reasons why average English people avoid it,
they don't seem to be quite sure what it means or when to use it. I'm
doing my best to educate them ;-)
So do you think I should point this out to my students (after all,
they will have to write essays for next few years), or do you think I
should rather keep it to myself (they are the native speakers; my
experience with the English language is rather limited).
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You could perhaps approach it in a different way, by asking them why
they use 'you' rather than 'one' adding that to you it seems wrong and
that some stiffy old examiners might not like it. I think I agree with
you though, if the paper important and serious then it should be 'one'
and not 'you' and that is what they should learn to use. |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:54 am
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
|
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
Giles
--
Running away as fast as his little stubby legs can carry him. |
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Gunter Kuhnle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:11 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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* Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote:
| Quote: | Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
|
I wouldn't mark them down (I'm anyaway just their supervisor), but I'd
like to help them to write acceptable essays in their exam.
| Quote: | (Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
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It's not limted to students, unfortuntatelt. But Wouldn't it be nice if
this would change?
Gunter |
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Nick Wagg
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:21 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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"Gunter Kuhnle" <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnd7c6qc.afd.gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk...
| Quote: | Hallo,
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
|
I was always taught to use the passive for this sort of thing.
Not "you can see" or even "one" but "it can be seen that..."
However, modern day thinking is that it sounds rather
stilted. |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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In article <4276a5bd$0$25041$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>,
John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> writes:
| Quote: | I think I agree with
you though, if the paper important and serious then it should be 'one'
and not 'you' and that is what they should learn to use.
|
Scientific papers have traditionally avoided the problem by using the
passive voice, for example: "It can be seen that..." However that does
make for rather heavy reading.
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83) |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:48 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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John Hall wrote:
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)
Which is not to be sneezed at 
--
John Briggs |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:33 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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On 3 May 2005 07:11:22 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | * Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote:
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
I wouldn't mark them down (I'm anyaway just their supervisor), but I'd
like to help them to write acceptable essays in their exam.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
It's not limted to students, unfortuntatelt. But Wouldn't it be nice if
this would change?
|
I'd think that you're probably right to advise your students to avoid
generic "you". An accomplished writer could happily use it because the
reader would know that he/she is doing so deliberately. Students may
not give that impression. As has been said, the passive voice is
commonly used to avoid the problem in the most formal writing. It can
sound rather stilted if overused (though not as bad as overused "one"
which becomes ludicrous) but that may not be a problem in the exam
setting.
--
Phil C. |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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On Tue, 03 May 2005 10:48:31 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | John Hall wrote:
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)
Which is not to be sneezed at
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Whereas snooker is the art of encouraging a large group of people to
cough.
--
Phil C. |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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On Tue, 03 May 2005 01:54:20 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu>
wrote:
| Quote: | On 2 May 2005 12:21:33 GMT, Gunter Kuhnle <gk-usenet@kuhnle.co.uk
wrote:
spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came
across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice
I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may
notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can
see', 'one notices' etc.
Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken language
(at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written
language, especially in an (mock) exam paper.
What do you think?
Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the
mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But
generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common
form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing,
particularly when used consistently.
French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun,
but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be
disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use.
(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.)
|
Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained
the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have
to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always
thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane
Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more
dramatic effect. No? Just me then.
We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science
lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever
used in formal scientific writing.
--
Phil C. |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:33 pm
Post subject: Re: 'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay |
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John Hall wrote:
| Quote: | In article <4276a5bd$0$25041$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>,
John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> writes:
I think I agree with
you though, if the paper important and serious then it should be
'one' and not 'you' and that is what they should learn to use.
Scientific papers have traditionally avoided the problem by using the
passive voice, for example: "It can be seen that..." However that does
make for rather heavy reading.
|
Ah yes, that's true enough. |
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