| Author |
Message |
Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Not to me. Dutch, Swedish and Danish are all closely related to
German, and fluent German speakers can make some sense of all those
other languages. Ditto Spanish and Portuguese.
|
Swedish and Danish aren't any more closely related to German than they are
to English, innit? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
| Quote: | There are a very few differences in vocabulary and a few turns of
phrase which might give the show away, but I think an RP speaker from
Wales would not be speaking a dialect of English, and the only thing
that might mark him as Welch would be his sentence rhythms.
|
An ugly old English stereotype, that the Welch and Scotch have
rhythm. For shame! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Jones
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
"M. J. Powell" <mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3lAaiXFTaAdCFwe7@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
| Quote: | In message <j2Tce.9714$j54.7160@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
atj@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
[...]
English is usually spoken in Wales with a Welsh accent and a few
distinctively local expressions, and this "Welsh English" could inexactly
(and offensively, I suppose) be termed a "regionalised English dialect".
Would you say that a Frenchman speaking English with the rhythms and
intonations of French to be a 'regionalised English dialect'?
|
No. But this is not a parallel situation. Suppose the Frenchman were a
Breton, speaking French with a Breton accent and using some words and
expressions characteristic of Britanny. I think we could say that he was
speaking in a "regionalised French dialect" or rather "dialect of French".
It seems undeniable that the predominant language of Wales is English. The
site www.Gwybodiadur.co.uk gives figures for the Census of 2002 and a major
survey carried out in 1992. In 1992, 66% of respondents (the sample was
confined to those resident in Wales) said they had no knowledge of Welsh at
all, and only 12% were native speakers in the sense that at home they spoke
at least as much Welsh as English. By 2002, 29% of the population claimed to
have one or more of the four skills in Welsh (reading, writing, speaking,
understanding), which leaves 71% who say they have none of these. I concede
that some of those responding would have been English or other immigrants,
and that there are Welsh speakers not currently living in Wales. Even so ...
So what are we to call the language spoken by the majority? English, yes:
but an English instantly recognisable as Welsh English by other UK
residents. So why is it improper to say that they speak a "regionalised
English dialect" (to use the original questioner's term) or, as I would
prefer, "a regional dialect of English"?
Alan Jones |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:45 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
On Sun, 01 May 2005 19:28:16 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: |
So what are we to call the language spoken by the majority? English, yes:
but an English instantly recognisable as Welsh English by other UK
residents. So why is it improper to say that they speak a "regionalised
English dialect" (to use the original questioner's term) or, as I would
prefer, "a regional dialect of English"?
Alan Jones
There are a very few differences in vocabulary and a few turns of |
phrase which might give the show away, but I think an RP speaker from
Wales would not be speaking a dialect of English, and the only thing
that might mark him as Welch would be his sentence rhythms. It's a
Welch _accent_ not a dialect. Is "Australian" a dialect? "American"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the Omrud
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:39 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
Areff put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
| Quote: | the Omrud wrote:
Not to me. Dutch, Swedish and Danish are all closely related to
German, and fluent German speakers can make some sense of all those
other languages. Ditto Spanish and Portuguese.
Swedish and Danish aren't any more closely related to German than they are
to English, innit?
|
That's my impression. I can only navigate myself around Helsinki by
use of the (mandatory) signs in Swedish, which I can sometimes
decypher by reference to German.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Wolff
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:28 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
In message <MPG.1cdf6acbffbffdf09898f1@news.ntlworld.com>, the Omrud
<usenet.omrud@gmail.com> writes
| Quote: | Areff put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
the Omrud wrote:
Not to me. Dutch, Swedish and Danish are all closely related to
German, and fluent German speakers can make some sense of all those
other languages. Ditto Spanish and Portuguese.
Swedish and Danish aren't any more closely related to German than they are
to English, innit?
That's my impression. I can only navigate myself around Helsinki by
use of the (mandatory) signs in Swedish, which I can sometimes
decypher by reference to German.
I see a number of Norwegian and Swedish texts in the course of my work, |
and am generally pleased to find I can match them to what they ought to
say from my knowledge of their presumed English equivalents and some
basic German. Without the German, I don't think I could.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 6:11 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
On Sun, 1 May 2005 20:58:05 +0000 (UTC), Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
There are a very few differences in vocabulary and a few turns of
phrase which might give the show away, but I think an RP speaker from
Wales would not be speaking a dialect of English, and the only thing
that might mark him as Welch would be his sentence rhythms.
An ugly old English stereotype, that the Welch and Scotch have
rhythm. For shame!
|
Well they keep dropping in saying 'you want jig-a-jig ?' and sometimes
it's not really a question. Look at Blur. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Raymond S. Wise
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
rbanis...@shaw.ca wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 01 May 2005 19:28:16 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:
So what are we to call the language spoken by the majority? English,
yes:
but an English instantly recognisable as Welsh English by other UK
residents. So why is it improper to say that they speak a
"regionalised
English dialect" (to use the original questioner's term) or, as I
would
prefer, "a regional dialect of English"?
Alan Jones
There are a very few differences in vocabulary and a few turns of
phrase which might give the show away, but I think an RP speaker from
Wales would not be speaking a dialect of English, and the only thing
that might mark him as Welch would be his sentence rhythms. It's a
Welch _accent_ not a dialect. Is "Australian" a dialect? "American"?
|
That brings up another distinction concerning the term "dialect" which
I did not mention in my previous post in this thread: dialect as
something distinct from accent. Traditionally, dialect was associated
with accent, but some linguists now consider the two to be separate
phenomena. One consequence of this is that it is possible to have a
standard dialect, such as Standard American English, which does not
have a standard accent associated with it.
While "Standard American English" is a dialect, "American English" is
not. It is, rather, a collection of dialects, a branch of the English
language. I would expect a similar relationship between Standard
Australian English and Australian English, but I don't know enough
about the linguistic situation in Wales to comment upon that.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Jones
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1114995763.367923.104860@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
rbanis...@shaw.ca wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 19:28:16 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:
So what are we to call the language spoken by the majority? English,
yes:
but an English instantly recognisable as Welsh English by other UK
residents. So why is it improper to say that they speak a
"regionalised
English dialect" (to use the original questioner's term) or, as I
would
prefer, "a regional dialect of English"?
Alan Jones
There are a very few differences in vocabulary and a few turns of
phrase which might give the show away, but I think an RP speaker from
Wales would not be speaking a dialect of English, and the only thing
that might mark him as Welch would be his sentence rhythms. It's a
Welch _accent_ not a dialect. Is "Australian" a dialect? "American"?
That brings up another distinction concerning the term "dialect" which
I did not mention in my previous post in this thread: dialect as
something distinct from accent. Traditionally, dialect was associated
with accent, but some linguists now consider the two to be separate
phenomena. One consequence of this is that it is possible to have a
standard dialect, such as Standard American English, which does not
have a standard accent associated with it.
While "Standard American English" is a dialect, "American English" is
not. It is, rather, a collection of dialects, a branch of the English
language. I would expect a similar relationship between Standard
Australian English and Australian English, but I don't know enough
about the linguistic situation in Wales to comment upon that.
|
I doubt whether a Welsh speaker of RP would use any distinctive feature of
Welsh English, including sentence rhythms and intonation, except perhaps for
a few words concerning specifically Welsh things for which there is no
Standard English equivalent: "eisteddfod" and so on. RP is characterised by
its own rhythms and intonation as well as by vowels and consonants; if these
are non-RP, the whole form of speech ceases to be so.
This notional RP speaker, lacking other Welsh-English speech features, would
not be a dialect speaker, nor would the many people with Welsh accents who
have no other regional feature in their speech or written English: accent
isn't to be identified with dialect. If, however, his RP were matched by the
kind of vocabulary and turns of phrase associated with the upper classes,
then I would regard him as a speaker of a dialect - that is, a variety of
speech characteristic of a large group defined geographically or socially,
or both, and distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, idiom and
accent. It wouldn't be a _Welsh_ dialect of English, though.
Alan Jones |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
On 01 May 2005, the Omrud wrote
| Quote: | Areff put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
the Omrud wrote:
Not to me. Dutch, Swedish and Danish are all closely related to
German, and fluent German speakers can make some sense of all
those other languages. Ditto Spanish and Portuguese.
Swedish and Danish aren't any more closely related to German than
they are to English, innit?
That's my impression. I can only navigate myself around Helsinki
by use of the (mandatory) signs in Swedish, which I can sometimes
decypher by reference to German.
|
Ah: we have a different definition of "make some sense of" another
languag. I took that to mean "understand the spoken and written
language to a rudimentary degree", rather than "decipher individual
words".
(I can figure out individual words and the cut-lines of photographs in
Italian based on my knowledge of French, but I personally wouldn't say
that that qualifies as "making some sense" of Italian a general sense.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
the Omrud
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
| Quote: | On 01 May 2005, the Omrud wrote
Areff put finger to keyboard in this fashion:
the Omrud wrote:
Not to me. Dutch, Swedish and Danish are all closely related to
German, and fluent German speakers can make some sense of all
those other languages. Ditto Spanish and Portuguese.
Swedish and Danish aren't any more closely related to German than
they are to English, innit?
That's my impression. I can only navigate myself around Helsinki
by use of the (mandatory) signs in Swedish, which I can sometimes
decypher by reference to German.
Ah: we have a different definition of "make some sense of" another
languag. I took that to mean "understand the spoken and written
language to a rudimentary degree", rather than "decipher individual
words".
|
I don't think we differ much. The understanding of individual words
leads to a rudimentary comprehension.
| Quote: | (I can figure out individual words and the cut-lines of photographs in
Italian based on my knowledge of French, but I personally wouldn't say
that that qualifies as "making some sense" of Italian a general sense.)
|
Ditto, with Italian and Spanish by reference to French and Latin. I
can understand simple instructions given to me in plainly spoken
Italian or Spanish.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Bannister
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:48 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Not to me. Dutch, Swedish and Danish are all closely related to
German, and fluent German speakers can make some sense of all those
other languages. Ditto Spanish and Portuguese.
|
Dutch yes, but the Scandinavian languages? - I would be very surprised.
I'd like to hear from some native Germans on this, but I would guess it
would be easier for an English speaker to makes sense of Norwegian, than
for a German to understand Swedish - and not very easy for either,
except perhaps in their written form, which is a different matter.
--
Rob Bannister |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Bannister
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:52 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
M. J. Powell wrote:
| Quote: | In message <j2Tce.9714$j54.7160@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
atj@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:427385d9$1@news.eftel.com...
Is the Welsh language a member of a particular language group?
I had assumed it to be a regionalised English dialect.
hence, I have recently been upbraided for suggesting it to be a
"dialect"
My pocket Oxford claims English to be a West German dialect,
So what about Welsh?
Than you kindly for any contributions.
Here's a sentence in Welsh, followed by the official English version: I
don't know how exact the match is between them, but it's clear that
Welsh is
not a dialect of English.
"Mae'r adran hon yn esbonio sut mae'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cael ei
drefnu."
"This section of the site gives details of the way the National
Assembly for
Wales is organised and structured."
But English is usually spoken in Wales with a Welsh accent and a few
distinctively local expressions, and this "Welsh English" could inexactly
(and offensively, I suppose) be termed a "regionalised English dialect".
Would you say that a Frenchman speaking English with the rhythms and
intonations of French to be a 'regionalised English dialect'?
|
Only if most of France still belonged to England.
--
Rob Bannister |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Bannister
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:57 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | "Raymond S. Wise" <mplsray@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1114995763.367923.104860@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
rbanis...@shaw.ca wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 19:28:16 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:
So what are we to call the language spoken by the majority? English,
yes:
but an English instantly recognisable as Welsh English by other UK
residents. So why is it improper to say that they speak a
"regionalised
English dialect" (to use the original questioner's term) or, as I
would
prefer, "a regional dialect of English"?
Alan Jones
There are a very few differences in vocabulary and a few turns of
phrase which might give the show away, but I think an RP speaker from
Wales would not be speaking a dialect of English, and the only thing
that might mark him as Welch would be his sentence rhythms. It's a
Welch _accent_ not a dialect. Is "Australian" a dialect? "American"?
That brings up another distinction concerning the term "dialect" which
I did not mention in my previous post in this thread: dialect as
something distinct from accent. Traditionally, dialect was associated
with accent, but some linguists now consider the two to be separate
phenomena. One consequence of this is that it is possible to have a
standard dialect, such as Standard American English, which does not
have a standard accent associated with it.
While "Standard American English" is a dialect, "American English" is
not. It is, rather, a collection of dialects, a branch of the English
language. I would expect a similar relationship between Standard
Australian English and Australian English, but I don't know enough
about the linguistic situation in Wales to comment upon that.
I doubt whether a Welsh speaker of RP would use any distinctive feature of
Welsh English, including sentence rhythms and intonation, except perhaps for
a few words concerning specifically Welsh things for which there is no
Standard English equivalent: "eisteddfod" and so on. RP is characterised by
its own rhythms and intonation as well as by vowels and consonants; if these
are non-RP, the whole form of speech ceases to be so.
This notional RP speaker, lacking other Welsh-English speech features, would
not be a dialect speaker, nor would the many people with Welsh accents who
have no other regional feature in their speech or written English: accent
isn't to be identified with dialect. If, however, his RP were matched by the
kind of vocabulary and turns of phrase associated with the upper classes,
then I would regard him as a speaker of a dialect - that is, a variety of
speech characteristic of a large group defined geographically or socially,
or both, and distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, idiom and
accent. It wouldn't be a _Welsh_ dialect of English, though.
|
One of the things I find interesting is that it seems to be the Welsh
who speak only English who have the strongest accents, especially those
from the South. I've met Welsh-speaking Welsh whose English was not
noticeably distinguishable from any resident of SE England.
--
Rob Bannister |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Welsh~ a general query. |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach wrote:
| Quote: | A similar phenomenon is observed in Scotland. The English of the
Highlands and Islands is fairly close to RP, whereas the English of
other parts of Scotland can get to the point of being incomprehensible
to English people.
This is because the English was picked up as a second language a few
generations ago when Gaelic was still the language of the people,
and was picked up in a form resembling RP.
I think you will observe the same in Ireland as well
|
And in Cumbria, where the language of the people was Old Norse, wot? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in